Emotional intelligence, multigenerational living and will international students come back? With Guest Host Zafar Bhunnoo

This week, Sarah and Deenie are joined by guest co-host Zafar Bhunnoo.

Zafar shares insights on the latest trends affecting shared living, including emotional intelligence, multigenerational communities, and the impact of international student numbers.

Here are some key takeaways from the conversation:
- Emotional intelligence's impact on real estate investment and marketing.
- The influence of changing owners and operators on assets.
- Growth of multigenerational communities on university campuses.
- The decrease in international student visa applications in 2024.
- How developers and investors should adapt to fewer international students.

We are excited to announce a new sponsor for this season, theEword - true experts in digital marketing specifically for the property sector.

We are also delighted that MyStudentHalls are continuing to sponsor the podcast, Mystudenthalls.com - Find your ideal student accommodation across the UK.

Each week, Sarah Canning, Deenie Lee of The Property Marketing Strategists and Daniel Smith of Student Housing Consultancy will be delving into a wide variety of subjects and asking the questions that aren't often asked. This podcast is for anyone who works in Student Accommodation, BTR, Co-living, Operational Real Estate or Shared Living.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are the personal views of the individual hosts.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

Hello and welcome to the third episode in the brand new season of How's to the Shared Living podcast. I'm Sarah Canning from the Property Marketing Strategists. And I'm Deanie Lee from the Property Marketing Strategists. This week is a little bit different as we have a very special guest co-host keeping Dan's chair warm whilst he is sunning himself on honeymoon this week. Zafar, would you like to introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_01: 0:22

Sarah, Deanie, thanks for having me. Yes, I'm Zaf. I am the founder and CEO of Limitless Real Estate. We've been playing in the real estate game for about 18 or so years and I've spent the last eight or nine of those in the shared living space so very happy to be here today.

SPEAKER_03: 0:38

Well we're delighted to have you with us and I think from the audience's point of view it'll be very clear that there's not much you don't know about shared living and housing. We're delighted that you've been able to join us and you were a natural fit for Dan's empty chair. Now a quick word from our sponsor.

SPEAKER_02: 0:55

This episode of Housed, the shared living podcast, is brought to you by The E-Word. digital experts in driving leads and putting people in your places.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03

Thank you so much to the E-Word for sponsoring us and wasn't last week such a fantastic episode chatting about the customer journey and all the insights from their new report. Make sure you check out the E-Word's website to get hold of all of that data and listen to last week's episode if you haven't already. And of course we love having Dan and the team at My Student Halls involved in Houzz again sponsoring this season. More from them later. Now on with the show. So this is my first time in the the podcasting seat this year. So I've been on jury service. So how are you both? And what have you been up to in the last week? It's been a busy start to the year. I think we have had lots of client works that we're doing, lots of proposals going out. I think it's still turning out to be a bit of a year of surprises. So I think lots of inquiries from people around kind of what's happening next, what's going on. And yeah, lots of changes. I think it was a busier week than I expected. I thought first two weeks doing jury service in January. That'll be fine. Sorry, Dini. That's all right. We got through it. It's all good.

SPEAKER_01: 2:07

Come back to an absolute barrage of emails, no doubt. Well done for holding the fort down, Dini. But yeah, no, for me, it's been a really busy start to the year. Actually, it's been a really positive turn. And I think personally, as well as professionally, just stepping into 2025 has been really refreshing and put a lot of, I feel like I put a lot of groundwork in over the last year, as I'm sure most people have. It's kind of surviving 2024 and the back end of 2023. So really feel like some of the responses I'm getting now from the capital markets, that's my big focus right now is raising capital, have actually been really positive. So I'm sitting here with fingers and toes crossed that we'll actually be able to conclude on these opportunities now, because I think it's a really exciting time ahead of us. I'm sure we'll talk about it over the course of this conversation, but really where I think there's a pent up demand to try and get into various spaces, share living, build to rent, PBSA. So yeah, really exciting time ahead. And I really feel quite tangibly that there's something different going to happen this year.

SPEAKER_03: 3:05

And is that based, do you think, on the new government, on kind of, I guess, the green light from the government that they want to build, need to build, and are making changes to make that happen? And maybe while there was all the uncertainty about the general election and the previous government, that that's part of what's been sort of pent up?

SPEAKER_01: 3:25

I think that's a good point. I wouldn't, and forgive me, I'll probably be slated for this. I'm not... I don't follow politics that much, if I'm really honest with you. And of course, I'm aware of what's gone on. And there's been a general election and Labour in government, and so on and so forth. However, I think you hit the nail on the head there, Sarah, in this idea that there's been uncertainty for so long, who's going to be in power, what the policy is going to be. But not just in the UK, I think the US general election has had a greater impact on us than we care to believe. And look, The industry we operate in has a lot of overseas capital, whether it's money that's coming from the U.S. or money that deals with the U.S. in various markets. So that aside as well, being settled over the course of November has really made a big difference. And now I think at least people understand the playing field that they're standing on, as opposed to this idea of uncertainty. But of course, you know, labor's desire and push to to really deliver more housing is also a positive thing. And I'll leverage that as a developer as much as I possibly can too.

SPEAKER_03: 4:25

Absolutely. Strike while the iron's hot, as they say. So obviously, you know, you are a regular listener of Houzz and we like to kind of pick up on what's going on in the market. And I know that there's an article that's caught your eye from Forbes about emotional intelligence in real estate. So talk to us about it. What grabbed your attention with that headline?

SPEAKER_01: 4:46

Yeah, I think we spend a lot of time in our industry, talking about the bricks and mortar and the service and the operation and the various elements of a particular transaction, shall we say, a business case. And I think we often forget that as businesses providing businesses to other businesses, that there's a consumer at the end of it. And sometimes that link is a little challenging for people, especially in the stakeholder world, in the developer world, in the investor world. So really it's something that I've been personally doing a lot of work on in terms of my own personal development, professional development around emotional intelligence and really understanding how do I understand my potential counterparties better? How do I enter discussions in a more meaningful way? So I'll paint a scenario for you. Let's say the last two years have been particularly challenging. We've had distress in the market. We've had uncertainty. We've had interest rate hikes, all sorts of things going on. And the upshot of that in the land market, for example, has meant that land values have gone down. Costs have gone up, values have gone down. It's a really bad equation for those that hold land and want to sell property on. And so really you think, okay, I rub my hands together, I've got some capital, I'll go and make some offers, I'll buy some land. But at the end of the day, you're dealing with potentially a very emotional disposal of from some of these landowners because they've held a piece of land with the hope that they've generated some value either by adding a planning permission or taking it through a process. But fundamentally, if the value is no longer there, I don't want to seem like a vulture and step in to take advantage of this bad situation they're in. So dialing up my emotional intelligence as an example to understand, okay, what's their perspective? How are they seeing this potential interaction or this potential opportunity? And how do I make it feel like a win-win? And part of that, and it's not really something that we're taught in real estate, the art of negotiation, the art of conversation, the art of actually, again, like I say, dialing up that intelligence. What's that other person feeling? And so doing that has been really helpful for me across a variety of different things in terms of landing new clients, landing new investors. securing new deals. So I just think the article from Forbes that you referenced there, Sarah, I think it just highlights how important emotional intelligence is in real estate, in business in general. And I think we can definitely do a lot more to really highlight more on that. And that's one side of things. Then you follow the train all the way down to actually we're building these spaces and they're going to be occupied by people. and they're each gonna have a different set of driver's requirements and interests and flaws and fears. How do we accommodate that? How do we deal with that? I think that's really quite an exciting place to be to try and understand, okay, what sort of product do I put into the marketplace? So, and obviously I know this is an area that, you know, the property marketing strategists are superb at in understanding the product and what people want. And I think there's more that could be done to really dial that up from this perspective of intelligence, EQ, as it were.

SPEAKER_03: 7:56

No, that's great. And thank you for bringing that to us. As you say, I think probably Sarah's probably sitting there thinking the same. Everything you said seems quite natural to us because I guess we come from that marketing sphere, which is very much around understanding your customer, understanding your customer's frustrations and understanding kind of what they need and how you solve that. So it's really interesting to kind of hear you talk about in a way, because actually I think emotional intelligence is helpful, as you say, in not just real estate and business, but actually all areas of life. And actually, if you really want to understand someone's point of view, or if they're in a situation of conflict, understand actually, well, why is it they're seeing it this way and I'm seeing it that way? That ability to be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes is really, really powerful and it's just interesting that actually there is because it's something that we do day to day it's really interesting to arguably maybe I haven't got any you're thinking that other people actually don't think about that every day and actually there is more that we can talk about it and and you're absolutely right how can you negotiate with someone if you don't really understand what their starting position is I think though that this is what we do a lot in our strategy work with brand because we we bring people from different parts of the business and different stakeholders together and actually if you think about it daily it does resonate doesn't it when you've got different people from different departments around the table and we're trying to get to the bottom of what a business does you've got one side of the table talking in units and ROI and you've got the other half of the table talking about residents and key messages and empathy and there is I can understand how that can be conflicting around a table when you're trying to bring people on a journey and you're trying to negotiate with people because I think it's just fundamental It's really

SPEAKER_01: 9:36

interesting. I think what you've said that even within an organization, you've got so many different micro stakeholders in the sense that they want to achieve what the business's vision or targets are, but then they're each pulling in their own direction, whether it's marketing or investment or development or strategy. How do you guys try to reconcile that when it comes to the client, as it were? And has there been a shift in people trying to understand the value or the importance of brand as a single point because brand actually does potentially encapsulate a lot of that emotion and it's what people consume with ultimately. Have you started to see that shift in that real understanding?

SPEAKER_03: 10:15

When we first came together we did a piece of research to the sector to kind of ask about brand and what people understood what brand was and what they put the value on it and I can't remember the exact figures but it was quite dismal and pretty low. So as a consequence very much our mission for the property marketing strategist was to elevate that role of marketing and get an understanding of brand in the sector to say actually if you don't have this if you don't understand this you're not really optimizing the true value of your brand or your marketing or or getting the benefits of what you should be doing and i think there has been a shift and i think actually people do talk much more about brand in the sector they understand its importance they understand it's not just a logo anymore but actually you know we've been talking that started this year is actually we need to go back out to the sector and do that research again really to understand whether there has been a fundamental shift and and see what there is so I think that is something that we'd like to work on because it is vitally important and I think you know where Sarah was talking about how you know we really try when we do brand work and we do brand audits with our clients we try and get all those stakeholders in the room because it really helps them to understand that actually I'm thinking this and we need to do this because this is my objective and then they're sitting opposite someone saying yeah but we still need to do this and it's kind of those light bulb moments go ah hang on we're pulling in different directions so yes I think there has been a shift have we got further to go probably Yes, but I think we probably need to do a bit of research and check where the dial is now.

SPEAKER_01: 11:40

Super interesting. I think one of the challenges, selfishly speaking, is in the conversations I have, especially as the solution, should we say, that I'm trying to present to investors on a particular site, whether it's a shared living concept, say, or mixed tenure approach, is the impact of time. And I think the notion that exists, and this is maybe a broad brush statement, that in order for a brand to have real value, it's just going to take too long. And so really, if I've got a three-year investment thesis, a five-year investment thesis, then the timing that it takes for that brand to be established and have real value to my investment strategy, it just doesn't make sense for me to really pay that much attention to it. So I think that's where a fundamental disconnect is. And then again, selfishly speaking... It's really who I align myself with from an investment perspective that has that longer term view. And I think this is where you'll probably start to see I don't want to preempt what the research will say, but this is where you probably start to see a real understanding that actually brand, emotional intelligence, connection in terms of the product that you're creating really works for those who have longer term use, pension capital, for example, patient capital, and those that want to stay in rather than trade out on a particular development project. Yeah, we do

SPEAKER_03: 12:56

see that with the kind of turnover of operators in the sector. You know, we've obviously seen a lot of it in PBSA and we've seen it start to happen in B PTR as it starts to mature is that then, you know, what does a brand mean if you've got a different operator every two years that has to instill something? And, you know, it runs so much deeper than the logo over the door, you know, or the actual building. And like you said, it takes time. So I think that is a real challenge in the sector. And we have seen that with the research that we've done with students is it's hard for them to build a connection with a brand because, you know, two years isn't really long enough to to build a brand, you know, something that runs deep, that runs through the core of your people and your residents, you know, and the building and your services and your product. And by the time they might have done that and invested in that, they've sold the building or they've changed operators. So I think, you know, brand potentially in other industries is quite different. I think real estate, it's, you know, it's a struggle and maybe it comes down to emotional, you know, intelligence. I think that's one for us to to keep an eye on, certainly. I think one thing that's interested me, and I know, Zaf, that you don't need any convincing of talking about multi-generational co-living, but I read an article from the wonderful HE about retirement communities on university campuses in America. And I was like, wow, what is this? I need to read about this because we've had sort of social experiments, haven't we, of nurseries in old people's homes. But that true multi-generational living model feels not quite there in the UK yet. And I think we have lots of debates about co-living. I wonder, Zafar, if we could chew your ear off and you can define it for us. But I think the one thing that I feel is missing from the co-living that we we see here is my understanding of it. It's about shared resources. It's not just about sharing a lounge. That doesn't make it co-living. And I feel like this retirement living on university campuses thing is really about shared resources because these older people are being used valuably within the learning environment and within Pasteur Osport, within the university. They've realised that these older people have got years and years and years of experience and knowledge to share And they're creating this amazing environment on campuses, which is surely it's the epitome of sharing resources, your, you know, your, your resource of knowledge and experience, you know, and emotion and all of those great things. So, I mean, Zafar, you've been close to it than, than either of us, you know, are we breaking the boundaries with multi-generational living in the UK? Is there anything that we should be excited about?

SPEAKER_01: 15:49

I think your references there to, and the definition that you're starting to highlight there Sarah is absolutely spot on I think the idea and we've become very fixated on the idea of what is co-living from a bricks and mortar perspective and the reason we need to define it from a bricks and mortar perspective is because we have stakeholders we have investors we have planners and the authorities need to understand where which box do I put this in and so By dint of that, it's forced us to just focus on the bricks and mortar. I remember a conversation I had with the planning authority back in 2016. That was, dare I say, one of the first pre-apps for true co-living. It didn't get consent, by the way, back then. But the question that the planning officer asked me is, which box does this sit in? Which use class does this sit in? And that simple question alone causes... whole multitude of issues, in my opinion, around, okay, now we need to define this idea of co-living as potentially an umbrella term to be very defined by its square meterage, its amenity, its location, and so on and so forth. And that's really what, call it Gen 2, Gen 3 co-living that exists in London and the UK now has become. And it's really moved away from this idea of actually sharing resources to your point spot on. It's really about collaborative living. How do we do more with less together? And in And that's really the true essence of what it is. And if I hark back to the original forms of co-living, you're really looking at Hakka villages in China and sort of villages in India, where it was really about shared resource. And the beauty of why those communities worked so well was because you had all manner of generations older, all the way through to the kids. And the elders all go through to the kids. And they each did different roles and responsibilities within the community, whether it was providing for the children, hunting and gathering, or going out and earning and whatever it may be, or working on the farms. Those roles and responsibilities were shared. And I've had the good fortune of actually visiting some of these places in Africa. And you go in and you just see that it's a thriving community. Because even though they don't have a lot of material wealth, they have a lot of social wealth. And I think that's a really powerful thing to focus on for a second, because you can have a group of children playing and you don't know whether they're brothers and sisters, whether they're all kids of the adult that's looking after them, because that doesn't really matter. Everyone's being provided for in the same loving way. And going back to this idea of multi-generational living, I think this is exactly where we as a people, we as a society, we as humanity need to get back to. We've gone back to this, we've had the issue of every person has their home, has their castle. And that's a very isolated way of looking at things. And that's what we have aspired to be. And COVID has been a massive exacerbator to say, actually community and connection, human connection, real human connection is what we want. Take that one step further when it comes to, say, co-living and sharing resources. You're absolutely spot on. Knowledge, experience, age. These are really valuable resources that we don't necessarily tap into as much as we probably could or should. And when you've got the younger generations who are maybe more disconnected because of let's not get into social media and all the other issues around that. But it's really they can provide that. real benefit and connection that they can learn from. And I personally, I still get a lot of experience when I speak to older individuals who are in their 60s, 70s and 80s as mentors, life and business mentors. And that for me is wonderful. I have to go out and seek that. So if I was living in an environment where that was very much just part and parcel of the fabric, my goodness, the opportunities and the learning, intrinsic or learning by osmosis, it's just incredible. And we've seen some really good examples of multi-generational living in different parts of the world. You mentioned the US. There's parts of mainland continental Europe, even in places like Korea and other parts of the Far East where they have this. And it's very, very successful because the students get a lot. The older individuals get a lot because they get, again, connection. It's the most human need that we all have is to be connected to other humans. So if you can create that in the environment you're in, then great. it's a real win. The question then is begged, what are the blockers in the UK?

SPEAKER_03: 20:19

Well, that's exactly what's going to be my question is that are we still, you know, back in 2016, where we don't have an appropriate use class that these buildings can be putting. So therefore, as a consequence, we're not actually building what society needs, what we need to build to deal with our kind of housing crisis. And everything you said, it kind of brought back a memory of mine when I was going through my grandma's kind of old photos. I mean, my grandma grew up on kind of brick lane in what was known as the buildings and there was this one photo which was probably during the war or just after the war might have been just after the war actually it was my aunt as a two-year-old on the back of the photo she'd written Lorraine playing on the rooftop of the buildings while I was out at work and you just think like in today's society you'd just be like I'd never go to work and just leave my two-year-old on the roof of a building but obviously there was a community there that was like well I'm going to work so you need to look after my child for the day because I I've got to go to work. And you kind of, we've lost that. And actually we don't have a, you know, we talk a lot about planning and the restrictions of planning, but is that like when we have talked about, there's always talks about the examples in other parts of the world. And actually, is it just, we've got a planning system that doesn't, is so regimented and out of date to what we need now that actually we just can't be innovative or try anything. And as you say, when you go back to people who are trying to get investments, you've got to build an investment that, you know, is trying to test needs going to get through the planning process. So as a consequence, we never try this stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 21:49

Yeah, I think this is really the billion dollar question, isn't it? Is it planning? Is it other things? And I think we could sit here and we could talk for hours and probably sound like broken records. It's the planning system. It's broken. It needs to change. I think it goes beyond that. And for a couple of points, number one, I think There's a sociological challenge that we need to overcome. Almost going back to what you're describing there, Dini, this idea of community and when your aunt as a young child playing and being looked after by a community, it's something that's kind of lost. And whether that's a fear of street crime or just a genuine lack of trust in the people who live around you, that's one thing that's missing. Then secondly, do I want to be living close to Other people who maybe don't look like me or don't have the same 2.4 children set up, So I think there's a sociological barrier that needs to be crossed. And then I think it's really creating investment cases that are targeting very specific demographics. And I personally, I really dislike this idea of we're targeting a demographic because it's very exclusive. It's not inclusive in the slightest. So the way in which I start to look at this idea of mixed and balanced communities or multi-generational living is really, if you can create, whether it's C3 or Sui Generis or whatever it may be, it's community living. How you've curate that then through the product, the spaces that you activate and the way in which you attract people to your scheme. That's really where I think the magic is. And it's, let's call it what it is. It's not particularly sexy to go and attract octogenarians to the latest co-living building. but they will probably add a huge amount of value to people that live there in terms of stickiness, quality, value from a shared resource perspective. So that's another way of looking at it. When we can then really get into shared nurseries and shared gardens and all sorts of things that become really quite exciting, that's potentially more of a planning matter. But I think there's a product piece and a positioning piece that we need to think about as developers and operators.

SPEAKER_03: 23:52

That's exactly what I was going to say. And I've written down marketing. We've not had the opportunity Exactly. Yeah. I know that there are outliers and operators tell us all the time, you know, yeah, but we've got this couple in their 80s, but they are outliers. You know, that's not the matter of it. I'm obsessed with Marmalade Lane in Cambridgeshire. I don't know if you've heard of that development so far, but no one's marketing it. It's just because of the product, it's attracted people from different walks of life that all live harmoniously, especially in this community. And I think as soon as people can see people like them, then it attracts people. people like them by having a building of 25 to 35 year old young professionals you know there's no diversity there so you know if somebody did come you know a couple in their 80s they're probably not going to feel like this is home for them you know they can't identify with it and you know the services and the product doesn't suit them so yeah I agree with you I don't think it is just a planning you know situation I do think it's wider than that and we've got to make it normal I guess that you can live with and it's you know it is a cultural thing in this country on my run I'm really really no and I like running around urban neighbourhoods and it struck me the other morning that there's so many houses that are like gated that are detached and gated or little developments that are gated and I know that you know that's a security thing that's a privacy thing but I'm like in some of those houses do they even know their neighbours you know I live in a semi-detached and quite a high density area of semis and terraces and we all do know each other a lot and you know there's lots of borrowing of stuff between neighbors which is lovely you know and also like Dini lives in a rural neighborhood where you know you do have neighbors they're not attached to you but you're still quite reliant on them for you know can you can you look after my dog can I borrow a pint of milk and everything so you've still got that kind of community but there's plenty of people that that don't and if if you know if you keep you know if people keep building i guess detached houses you know or gated communities then it's never going to happen i was just going to say that is one good thing though that i think did come out of covid i mean i during covid i lived in in london you know in a very dense area and i knew a couple of my neighbors but it was a you know it was probably over a mile along my road and i always used to think there's a lot of people live on this road and i don't know any of it did is actually we set up a whatsapp group they're still going today so actually in that sense i think it really did help like Local communities connect. So people did begin to say, actually, can I borrow this? And, you know, and I've left now. And because I set up that WhatsApp group, I was on it for a long time while I was still on it. It's still being used today for this is happening, that's happening. And so one good thing came out of COVID, I guess. We just need to take a break and hear from our sponsor.

SPEAKER_00: 27:00

Season three of Housed, sponsored by mystudenthalls.com. Let's find your place.

SPEAKER_03: 27:08

Thanks again so much to My Student Halls for supporting us for a second season. We're so happy that the lovely listeners of Housed are getting their properties listed where it matters. Now back to our chat. I just wanted to quickly talk about some of the data. I think as we're moving into 2025, people are collating their 2024 data. And one that caught my eye this week was from the PIE, which has kind of collated international student visa application numbers over last year versus 2023. And they've said that there's a 14% decrease in international student visa applications. And it's based on data from 70 institutions, of which 80% reported a decrease in postgraduate enrolments from international students with the biggest numbers from Nigeria, India and Pakistan. The other interesting stat that I pulled out was that international students account for 71% of all full-time PG students in the UK compared to just 17% of undergraduates. So I guess, you know, we touched on politics earlier in this conversation, but, you know, do we think that international students will make a U-turn and we're going to see those kind of PG international numbers increase again.

SPEAKER_01: 28:20

Goodness me. There's some real big swings there, isn't it? It's a massive decrease. And I wonder what the implication is for some of those universities, because I think obviously fees, I'm not close enough to it to really comment, but a lot of fees that are coming from international student kind of prop up the university to some degree. Just hearing you say that, Sarah, and useful to get your guys' thoughts on this. Ultimately, if individuals are coming over from different parts of the world to study in the UK, the reasons, in my opinion, are going to be prestige of some of the universities, whether they are London-based universities or some of the red brick universities. But also then the obvious transition is job opportunities. And I guess the question really that springs to my mind immediately is, Are employers in the UK or are the initiatives that the UK government have to retain talent attractive enough versus maybe some of our international counterparts? I think that could be an interesting one to explore. I know that there's a desire for us to become a more central European tech hub. And there was a period of time where London was a place to go, but I think we're still losing out to different parts of Europe. I think Lisbon's fast becoming one of the fastest growing tech hubs in Europe for the moment. So, yeah, just wondering, I think retention is an important point. What do you do once you've got your prestigious university degree? I

SPEAKER_03: 29:48

think that is part of the problem for sure, because the rules have changed on graduate employment and how long you can stay after your degree to work. And obviously to work, you've also got to be sponsored by an employer as well. And, you know, that's been reduced. So you can still do it, but I think it's been reduced to like two years now. And I had a really, really interesting chat with a colleague from India. And, you know, he said that the numbers are pretty skewed, to be honest, because there's a job like, I'm going to leave university. And, you know, they could go work in a supermarket or be a barista in a coffee shop to pay their rent. But that's not why they were here. So we're talking, you know, we're not just talking about any job just to stay in the country. We can't be arrogant enough to say that they want a meaningful job that they have worked really, really hard for with a salary that, you know, befits that. experience that they've had here and the sacrifices they've made so that while they are here working, they can live a good standard of life and have an amazing experience before potentially going to another part of the world with that experience. Yeah, I think, you know, we think of 18 year olds as being really young and naive. But I think actually, if you're making the investment to move to another country, you probably are having those thoughts, not just about your degree, but what's going to happen after that. And is it worth it?

SPEAKER_01: 31:18

I mean, the countries you mentioned, you mentioned, I think, India, Pakistan, Nigeria, and I'm half Indian myself, so I can speak to this to some degree. there's a real desire, the weight they place on education, call it what it is, is probably greater than what Brits in general, that's a very general term, would place on education. So there's almost like from the moment they have the means to start saving to send a child or have the ability to send a child abroad, that's like a real golden moment. I mean, they celebrate it so much when they can send a member of the family to the UK or to the US to do university. So I think then, to your point, there's got to be something that's keeping that child because they're an investment. And if a graduate, postgraduate, is then working as a barista or working in a supermarket, not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not the line of vocation that they set out to achieve based on that investment that their family has made into them. So I think really there's probably a couple of areas that we need to look at. And it's almost like... I'm doing some work with some university students and some graduates at the moment to see, okay, how do we demystify the process of entering the workforce as graduates? What are the opportunities? How do you raise that? And I think we, I say we as the industry, could do a better job to almost attract more talent rather than just relying on some of the large organizations like Savills and like Frank that have their graduate programs, which to some degree are quite successful. But also, are we appealing to those international students who potentially have a different work ethic? I don't know, maybe a few controversial things there. But in the idea being, okay, if we are bolstering, let's put it this way, a PBSA company, pick an organization, has a like a nurturing program or a graduate program where they recruit some of these international students. And in doing that, they're creating that longevity whereby they can see that they're attracting more talent from abroad, which maybe in turn creates this U-turn. And so their product that they build will be more valuable because there's more heads in those beds. Just looking at the broader business case there.

SPEAKER_03: 33:28

what I was thinking through kind of all that conversation, I guess ultimately is that we've come to this situation because A decision was made to impact one area of politics in terms of migration and student numbers being part of migration. But we've broken lots of other things in doing that. And I think this is, and I guess where are my head's going is that we, you know, as a university sector, as a PBSA sector, as a graduate kind of opportunity sector have to kind of adjust to that because that damage has been done. And there's lots of other things at play as well, I guess, as where my head was going to is that actually international universities or universities not in the UK are you know improving their university status are it's you know there's more reason and encouragement to go to other universities in these countries so the requirement to study in the UK is not as great attached with the fact that actually you then are limited to how long you can stay in the country to work which is the thing that means that you don't get those stepping stones to build up your career you know if you only can stay for two years you don't get so far in your career to be able to move on and another thing which wasn't mentioned in the article that I don't think gets talked about enough is that there's lots of different ways that you can continue your education now and it doesn't have to be on a traditional degree route and you know and you know I don't live in London anymore but every time I go to London I'm always seeing a new billboard ad about kind of a new university a new online university that's doing all these great things that means you can study in your own way in your own time with the key kind of tech subjects that people need to be studying for the future workforce that we have. And I don't know if we... I don't know, I just kind of feel that actually the world is changing in every area at a kind of really, really quick rate that we can't keep up. And actually, I think higher education... as we know it, is probably changing. And do we need to stop asking that question, Sarah, of is will it come back? Because I kind of feel there's a sense that, oh, it's just a blip and it'll come back. And actually, has it not changed for good now? That's kind of where my brain had gone with the conclusion of this conversation really is that, yeah, I think we should stop talking about stats that were in the past because I do think that things have moved. And, you know, we work a lot in the PBSA sector and university accommodation as well. And the numbers are changing. And I think at first it was, oh, this is the first year post-COVID. So it'll settle down. But we're two, three cycles beyond that now. And we're not seeing it go back to those kind of numbers. So yeah, I agree. I think it needs a different attitude, different response, different planning. I think when people are looking at what design they're building and the prices and the cities, they don't assume that that building is going to be filled with international students. It's not a sustainable model. It's too volatile. And I don't think anyone should be developing on the basis that by the time this is built, the numbers will have changed because I don't think we've got any assurance or confidence that that's going to happen. I just think back to your earlier points, Zaf, around kind of the building shouldn't be segmented and we shouldn't build buildings just for one segment of society. I think a real issue for pbsa and i think the renters rights bill is going to make it worse because ultimately you know there's a benefit in being a purpose-built student building now not that there wasn't before but there's even greater benefit and i just yeah and it just goes away from that kind of broader world view of actually we should just build homes that people can live in. A big thought that probably is one for another episode.

SPEAKER_01: 37:20

I love that thought. It's a great closing thought. I think just to build on that real quick, the fact that the world is changing as quickly as it is and trying to plan ahead I think it's really the way to look at it now. It's really rather than relying on those stats of Evold and to your point, Sarah, rather than just picking up on a couple of cycles post-COVID, it's really just trying to think, how do we build better? How do we do better rather than just create more of the same? And there's got to be that shift to creating better rather than more of the same. And I think that touches on potentially neatly the various points that we've discussed today.

SPEAKER_03: 37:58

Yeah, and I think we cover that probably in pretty much nearly every one of the almost 50 episodes that we've had of Housed. So I'm glad that it's not just us that you share that vision as well, Zaf. And, you know, we'll look forward to having you back maybe as a guest host another day and we can continue this conversation. But in the meantime, thank you to the E-Word for being our headline sponsor for the season. Your support is hugely appreciated. And of course, thank you to our friends at My Student Halls for joining us as a sponsor once again. Thanks though to Zaf. A huge thank you for stepping into Dan's shoes this week. And yeah, what a variety of topics we've covered. And like I said, we could have carried on for hours, but we have to draw this podcast to a close. Next week, Dan will be back from his honeymoon and back into his co-host seat. For the first time, I think the three original hosts will have been together this year. Please subscribe to House so you get the brand new episode every Friday. And if you could leave us a rating and a review, that would be fantastic. Thank you very much and see you again next week.