Housed: The Shared Living Podcast
Sarah Canning and Deenie Lee of The Property Marketing Strategists have teamed up with Daniel Smith of Student Housing Consultancy to discuss the latest news, views and insights in the shared living sector.
Each episode they will be delving into a wide variety of subjects and asking the questions which aren't often asked.
This podcast is a must for anyone working in Student Accommodation, BTR, Co-Living, Operational Real Estate or Shared Living.
Housed: The Shared Living Podcast
The end of All-Inclusive Bills? The Sustainability Shift, Industry Awards the Housing (Scottish) Bill
We are on Episode 60, and this week the hosts; Deenie, Dan and Sarah are discussing:
- The latest Youth Forum research on students and sustainability
- Recycling: are we going far enough?
- Key drivers for renters: is it cost or sustainability?
- All-inclusive bills: time we moved away from them?
- Industry awards: should you be entering them?
- The RESI Awards
PLUS this episode includes an exclusive interview with Gillian Mclees, Chair of the ARL Scottish Hub, on the Housing (Scotland) Bill.*
*The parliament committee concluded that PBSA's inclusion couldn't be removed by subsequent amendments. It is expectd to be voted down at stage 3, when all party leads (except The Green Party) confirmed there is no appetite to include PBSA. All parties gave speeches confirming this. An amendment to allow 28 days notice is being made to try and appease this under exceptional circumstances and to reflect industry best practice.
Thank you to our season four sponsors:
MyStudentHalls - Find your ideal student accommodation across the UK.
Utopi - The smart building platform helping real estate owners protect the value of their assets.
Washstation - Leading provider of laundry solutions for Communal and Campus living throughout the UK and Ireland.
Each week, Sarah Canning, Deenie Lee of The Property Marketing Strategists and Daniel Smith of RESI Consultancy will be delving into a wide variety of subjects and asking the questions that aren't often asked. This podcast is for anyone who works in Student Accommodation, BTR, Co-living, Later Living, university accommodation, Operational Real Estate or Shared Living.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are the personal views of the individual hosts and guests.
Hello everyone and welcome back to Housed, the shared living podcast. This is the fourth episode in season four and thank you so much for listening and engaging with us in this season so far. I'm Sarah Canning from the Property Marketing Strategists.
Speaker 2:I'm Dan Smith from Resi Consultancy and.
Speaker 3:I'm Dini Lee from the Property Marketing Strategists. Let's hear from our headline sponsor. Season four of Housed is sponsored by mystudenthallscom. List your properties commission-free and reach thousands of students searching for their university home.
Speaker 1:Dan and the team from my Student Halls have been supporters of Housed since the beginning and we're really, really grateful that they're here once again to be headline sponsors of Season 4. Their student accommodation listing site is easy for students and easy for operators, and so make sure that you get in contact if you still have rooms to let this season. And thank you as well to Wash Station and Utopia for also sponsoring this season. We'll hear from them later. So how are you all, dan? You're sounding a little bit gravelly this morning.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm legitimately considering turning my camera off for this. I look as bad as I sound. Yeah, man, flu has has struck and I've been laid low all weekend, which hasn't been too bad because the weather's been really nice, but yeah, it's. I'm hoping that I pick up before the ld events conference tomorrow, the student housing conference, because I'm on a panel there talking all things ai and prop tech, so hoping to better but feeling very sorry for myself. Please do get those tiny violins out.
Speaker 1:And Deanie, how are you today?
Speaker 3:I'm all good no flu, no problems enjoying the weather and ready for another very busy week that we have.
Speaker 1:I think we've both got exams going on in our house this week, haven't we, deanie?
Speaker 3:You've got SATs starting and we've got GCSE starting, so we do, yes, so I packed, packed Lila off to do her first exams, but she was fine, took it in her stride, so all good, which is the way SAT should be anyway that's good, I did say in our house.
Speaker 1:You know, once you get started with GCSEs it becomes the norm for like the next four weeks. Really, it's that first one getting it under your belt, and we've got GCSE A-levels going on in our house. So kind of low-key weekends at the moment, just letting the older two get on with their revision and kind of trying to keep the house as stress-free as possible. So we'll see I'll let you know in a few weeks time if the stress-free environment has done them any good. But anyway, on with the show.
Speaker 1:What we wanted to talk about today is the property marketing strategist. Dini and I we run a youth forum. We've been running it for a few years now and what that involves is surveying a database of young people about really key topical issues Quite a short survey. So it's quite a snap kind of result on what they think about certain things and then we do some focus groups with them to really delve into it. So this month's one has all been about sustainability and is it a key factor in decision making for students? There is a report and there are soundbites that you can download, and we did a webinar last week as well with our partners Student Crowd and Utopia, but we just thought that some of the insight was so interesting that we wanted to make sure that we talked about it today, in case anybody has missed any of the other content. So, deanie, what did you think were the key bits of insight that kind of really could or do or don't impact the accommodation decision making?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think there's lots of interesting stats in the report. I think the big ones around that 69% of students would like their landlord to give more control over energy consumption, which obviously the sector is renowned for its all inclusive bills means actually that control over energy is non existent, but actually that want and need and requirement is there overwhelmingly and also that there feels like there's a shared responsibility. So 76% feel landlords are equally responsible for the environmental impact of a rental property. So there is that desire to want to work with a landlord to make sure that they are working together to improve their kind of carbon footprint. One thing that struck me that we didn't discuss on the webinar on Friday was that 16.5% want recycling facilities and that to me feels really high still when recycling should just be a given. So that makes me think that actually is there an education piece? There Is things missing, but it just feels quite high still.
Speaker 1:I think, from memory, when we talked about it in the focus groups, it was more recycling facilities that they wanted. So I think they were talking about bottle banks and food waste as well, and also I think there was a general feeling that there's some kind of apathy with recycling, that it's not really monitored, and you might have recycling bins if you live in PBSA or university accommodation, but are they really being used right and do people really know what to recycle and what not to recycle? So I agree, Dini, I think that was quite high but probably misleading. They probably do have recycling facilities, but they might not be to the extent that they want or would utilise.
Speaker 2:I think this is something that PBSA operators don't do particularly well, if I'm being honest with you, because it's in the too difficult box. There are plenty of other things like energy management that I think typically take priority because they have such an effect on the NOI, and recycling is more of nice to have. It's sort of a bit of a nod to sustainability effectively, and it's great that students are now starting to ask those questions not necessarily demand it, but ask those questions. Questions not necessarily demand it, but ask those questions. Now, obviously, you've got your sort of standard recyclables, then you've got your bottles, then you have your food waste and your general waste, so that's a lot of space to take up. When it comes to actually managing that for en-suites, for studios, for shared apartments, I don't think there's been enough of a focus on what that should actually look like, what best practice for recycling and I don't I don't profess to have the absolute answer there.
Speaker 2:I think that some of this comes down to education, but you do end up having issues with food waste, in particular in schemes that I know that have trialed food waste management on by putting food waste bins in the ensuite shared apartment kitchens.
Speaker 2:It just hasn't worked and you know you've ended up with mold, with flies, with maggots, with all sorts.
Speaker 2:I think that it's an education piece that we really have to to work with, work on, and the ideal is that you have a collection partner for your bins, whether that's the local council or whether that's private, and I'm seeing increasingly more PBSA operators go private, even though the local council should be part paying for or at least providing that service where it's all done after the fact. So you can separate a couple of bits and have two separate bins, one for recycling and one for general waste and food waste and then everything can get separated a little bit later on. That does increase the amount of recycling that can be done, but again, it's it's an extra cost and I don't think that people are really looking for that at the moment. So we'd love to hear from anyone who's got any grand recycling ideas or any really good pilots or any really good companies out there that are pioneering that in particular. So I think it's time to do a bit of best practice sharing so that we can actually chart the best way forward for it.
Speaker 1:personally, I think, dan, what you just said about studios was bang on like the bins are too big. So quite often you see the same size recycling bins in a shared flat as you do in a studio and if you're looking at a studio that's maybe only like 18 square meters, you chuck, you know, two big recycling bins and it's kind of overwhelming. So I agree it needs a little bit of a rethink.
Speaker 3:I was just going to say that what Dan was saying around kind of the recycling I think connects slightly with the piece around that people do want to live with like-minded people when it comes to environment.
Speaker 3:What we saw was an increase on when we did this survey a couple of years ago, that now I think it was 77%. 79% said living with people who practice environmentally friendly habits was important to them, which has grown from 59%. So that's quite a big growth and I think it comes down to because I totally understand that if you've got people in the flat that don't want to put their food waste in the right bin and people that do, that becomes a nightmare for operators. So I think there possibly is something around actually giving ownership of saying actually if you as a group of people want to do this, then you can do it and this is the means, but not make it mandatory, because I think that's when you get things difficult you don't want to be cancelled out, so you don't want to have a student who's really protective over the environment and their impact on it be put in the same kind of position as someone who just doesn't care.
Speaker 2:And I'm not going to generalize or stereotype and say it's international students that don't care and domestic students that do. I think it's much more. It's much more of a shared picture. Do you have any data on that, as to whether it's domestic students or international students that really care about their impact? What was the youth forum saying?
Speaker 1:We do have that data from previous research that we did with international students. We didn't put it in this one because I think the nuance wasn't that different, to be honest, but we'll pull it out and make sure that we cover that on LinkedIn or next week. I think the elephant in the room let's cut it is bills all inclusive bills and that came out in so many different responses in the survey is that the students that we surveyed they want transparency, they want more knowledge, they want more control over it. If they live in all inclusive bills because not everybody that we surveyed does they said that they're maximizing it. Basically I think deanie worded it perfectly on the webinar is that they don't see it as free, they see it as included and if they're paying for it they're going to use it, a bit like as I'm sure many of us have on an all-inclusive holiday. You know, if you, if you feel like it's included, you're gonna maximize it and that's what people are doing.
Speaker 1:So the only way to change kind of accountability and transparency with energy usage is to stop all-inclusive bills now. Interestingly, ben from utopia is working with a developer at the moment who have put individual meters in all of their flats. They may not use them, they may not connect them, but they're future-proofing. And also what this does, as we discussed on the webinar, is it makes it suitable to be a BTR residence in the future, because most BTR is not bills included. So by pre-empting the potentially having to shift, that's future proofing the building. Dan, you're desperate to chip in here.
Speaker 2:That's really interesting. I wonder if that's in Leeds or Nottingham, to be honest, but I think that's super important because, as we get through to 2030 and that demographic dip starts to kick in again and there's less 18 yearyear-olds eligible to go to university in the UK in terms of our domestic numbers, we are going to have to think about what that demand profile looks like, and there are already PBSA operators and PBSA properties out there that are trying to change their use from PBSA and student to being BTR or co-living, and so I think that's a really good way to potentially future-proof. Now, of course, if you're building now, you don't really want to have to be thinking about that, but I do think that PBSA properties do need to be defensive and you need to think about what that use case could be in terms of potentially switching it a bit later down the line. So I really that. I think that it's the all-inclusive bills is is fascinating and and I mean that in the sense of yeah, how do you put students on the hook for it? Do you know, for actual energy management and behavior change, and I think Utopia have always been at the forefront of this with their sort of resident facing app and the sort of behavior change element to utopia. I know that they've now got hardware as well, so you know it's full heating control and energy management and behavior change.
Speaker 2:And I think that the only real way to show large scale change and I mean beyond double digits in terms of the, the sort of percentage savings that you would see for energy management in particular would be by splitting those bills. But who is going to be brave enough to actually do that? And I don't know that anyone in PBSA would be able to do that on a large scale. Yet I think there are some. I've heard anecdotally that there are some people that have trialed it or are currently piloting it. Quite how popular that would be. I don't know If anybody is running a pilot or has separated their energy bills or utility bills from the rent. Do please get in touch. We're very keen to see if that is an effective way to reduce energy consumption and obviously therefore increase the benefits, or sustainability benefits and also the effect on the bottom line. So yeah, be really keen to see what people have done out there.
Speaker 1:I think, just to add to that not necessarily those people that have done it, that have split it but is anyone being transparent to their residents about how much percentage of their rent is covered by utilities? Because one thing that we found in other research that we've done is people being kind of quite unprepared for that when they might live in an HMO or BTR, you know, on their own, basically outside of that all inclusive bubble. So even just making you know that behaviour, change of kind of, did you know that this much is impacting it? That would even really really help.
Speaker 2:or you know, telling people how much energy is being consumed in their building I think one thing that we always look at when we're doing ESG strategies is how much does the operator care Because, yes, we're being led by students here is how much does the operator care Because, yes, we're being led by students here rightly so in terms of the experience that they want to have, and the focus, of course, should be on the resident. But it does come down to how much the operator actually wants to make a difference, a positive difference, in terms of sustainability. And that's always the question we get to when operators push back on us or investors push back on us and say, look, we don't think the resident or the student really cares about sustainability in the way that you know. We might do as a or rather you might do as a consultant, but aren't we then push back and say do you care? Like it's?
Speaker 2:It's fine that you have residents that just aren't particularly bothered, but and, yes, you can lead the horse to water, but you can't make it drink. But I think it does come down to operators and investors wanting to actually put their stake in the ground and say, yeah, look, this is our, this is our key focus. We are going to push sustainability, it's going to become part of our business in a bigger way than than it currently is, and we have to educate the resident there rather than just purely being guided on convenience that the resident might be focusing on straight away.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think that's another stat that came up, dan is actually when purchasing, what students prioritise most.
Speaker 3:We found that it was 62% cost, obviously, but actually it was 18% convenience and 20% environment.
Speaker 3:So actually they are thinking environment before convenience generally and but I think, for all-inclusive bills.
Speaker 3:I just in a world where we're trying to get to net zero and I think we all learn from the kind of energy crisis and price increases when everyone had to turn their heating down that the only way you change behavior is if there is a reward in return for that, and I think you can't teach people that and you can't encourage that and you can't engage with that unless you've got control of your bills, and we're otherwise, you know, teaching a whole generation to not worry about it and then they go out. They're only going to get hurt when they move on to another thing. So it kind of feels that this is possibly the death knell of all-inclusive bills. And I guess the other thing that I think we talked about on the webinar was just around the affordability piece. Actually, if you strip out bills, you start to actually see a rate, a rent rate, and then bills is something that you can't control as an operator In a world where there's no certainty when it comes to energy bills?
Speaker 1:I think it, and operators have no control over that, then it probably makes sense that actually we make that separation between those two things. I think that control thing is really important actually, and I think for so long we you know operators and universities have felt like we're taking all the hassle out of it. It's so easy to live in PBSA and university accommodation. They don't have to think about anything, but actually they they want and need control when. So when they feel out of control, I think, in so many other ways as a bold statement, dini, the death knell for all inclusive bills in pbsa.
Speaker 2:Now I think we're a little way off that, but I do. You know the reason that I'm asking for that. We're asking for people to get in touch with pilots with information on any time that they've trialed it or if they've got it in. You know, in properties right now, separating their bills and the rents is because I do think that is a direction of travel. It will be much more attractive to have a lower rent, but it will reduce that level of convenience. And when you look at someone like UniHomes, which is a marketplace for student HMO, and when you look at someone like UniHomes, which is a marketplace for student HMO and now PBSA, they effectively help student HMO landlords and letting agents to offer all inclusive pricing and that is growing year on year in a big, big way. And I think that that is something that we still need to be focusing on with PBSA, that that is a convenience that students love, the fact that it's all inclusive. They don't have to worry about it. But maybe that's just going to be reserved for the mid, middle to upper or the premium or the super premium pbsa.
Speaker 2:Maybe a way to make it more affordable is to strip out the energy consumption or the utilities, or whatever it might be, leave broadband in there. Let's be really clear about that. Everybody needs their, their broadband, but, yeah, and of course, their water, but I think mainly the electricity, or gas, hopefully majority electricity. I think there's a way to to really have a lot of benefits for in terms of sustainability, but also drive down those costs and therefore drive down the rent, which puts a lot more operators in the more affordable sector. So, yeah, that might well be something that we start to see more of. Then, at what point do you then talk about student energy poverty, though? That's the real worry that we've got, because you'll be closing that gap between student HMO and PBSA as well and creating a sort of two tier that you know, can you afford to heat your room or not? That is. That is another tricky one.
Speaker 1:So when you were talking, my brain was kind of whizzing forward and I think there's loads of aspects to that. We, we, we don't see a massive difference, to be honest, in PBSA brands and I think they really, really struggle because they're so worried about taking services away. So other you know that the price points are quite different, but actually what most PBSA provide is a really, really high quality and that's why we struggle, I think, to see this affordable layer. So I think you're right. I think that would be a great way of making an affordable layer of accommodation. But PBSA can still manage those bills.
Speaker 1:We're not saying go and find your own energy supplier and you're going to have to split the bills with your flatmate. I think if you've got an energy meter within a flat and within a studio, you just get a bill for that, and if you're in a six bedroom flat, then it gets divided six ways. You know that is how it works at HMOs a lot of the time. You know people don't really have metering per room, and then you've got the kitchen and the living room anyway. So I think that could work. So we're not saying it's taking, it's not making it difficult.
Speaker 1:I don't think for PEAT students? We're still not, you know. It still gives it the edge on HMOs who have individual bills. We're not saying go and find your own energy supplier, split the bills, pay it individually, set up direct debits. We're just saying that actually we'll take care of it, but you will be metered in your flat and then it probably comes down to what we were talking about before, dini, about living with like-minded people. Even if you don't live with like-minded people at the point that you're having to pay a bill for it, those people will surely be educated pretty quickly about their energy usage and that's the way to kind of nudge that behaviour on, really. And it still gives that differentiation between PBSA and HMOs.
Speaker 3:I still think we're going to see more of a fair usage policy coming in as well I should say just to your point, sarah, about it can still be controlled by the operator is that you can still take it on a monthly, termly, weekly basis and just say we're going to add 20 pounds for your energy bill. If you use less, will you know? You accrue that money in a pot and the next bill you might get a little bit less. You know the way that we pay our bills. You know all. You pay a monthly thing all year round and at the end you either get a rebate or you have to pay more. So there's there's lots of different ways you can do it, I think.
Speaker 1:But yeah, well, we'll, we'll watch this space, I guess and I think we suggested to a client once, if they made it transparent, and there's loads of fun ways that you can kind of use that excess so you could say to the student you can take the cash back, it could be a discount off rebooking the following year. They could donate it to charity as well, which is also part of, you know, your ESG policy. So there's loads of ways that you could do it, but they're only going to do it if it goes both ways. You know they don't want to be thinking that they're going to be charged more all the time. There needs to be an element where, like you said, deanie, they could be charged less, and we know that so many of these buildings are so well insulated that they may well think twice about turning their heating on.
Speaker 3:I think the stat that's been in my mind all week that Ben told us from Utopia, was that on average told us from Utopia, was that on average? I think these PBSA properties are being heated to 25 degrees, which is a phenomenal heat to be living in and is completely unnecessary, so it feels that that needs to change. You know, we shouldn't be living in an average heat of 25 degrees. That is not the way that we become more sustainable.
Speaker 2:Again, it's that education piece and I would put money on the fact that that is international students to stereotype and generalize, because we see it, I see it, every property I go around where I can see middle of winter windows open, heating, you know, blasting full tilt, I'm pretty sure that's going to be an international student. But equally, I think that we just need to keep that education going piece with domestic students as well. And and I do think we need to separate and we need to say right, international students. We know that they may want it hotter. Yes, there's typical settings on their heating controls for international students, but they're all start, they all start the same, like they should all be, starting around that 19 degree mark. And then, if you want an increase in your total capacity, your max capacity for your temperature, go and speak to someone at either the general manager or whatever it might be.
Speaker 1:I still think that element of control still needs to sit with the, with the operator great well, if you want more information about that data, then please go to our website, propertymarketingstrategistcouk. Forward slash insights and you can pull off the whole report. You can watch the webinar and you can watch the focus groups that we had with students as well. We may well be coming back to some of these topics later on. In the meantime, let's hear from our sponsors.
Speaker 3:Wash station wash station proudly sponsor this episode of Housed. We provide best in class laundry solutions that complement your buildings. Wash Station smart, green, clean.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much from the team at Wash Station. So another thing I got up to this week is I went to the Resi Awards. I very, very kindly got invited by Ping Technology Solutions who were sponsoring part of the event, and it was. I mean, I do love the Property Week event. They're very glitzy and glamorous. The awards go on a bit, as we know. Anybody that's been to one of those events know it's a you know three hours sit down of going through all the awards, and I'm pretty sure the Resi Awards has even more categories than the Student Accommodation Awards, which is is you know which is saying some.
Speaker 1:And interestingly they have to split some of their categories down into developments of certain sizes because the number of entries that they got for each award was so huge. So, like the developer of the year was split into, you know, different sizes etc. So that added a few on. But yeah, big congratulations to scape, who were were the big winners of the night. I think they were absolutely delighted to win Student Accommodation Operator of the Year. But the one that really surprised them was the award that they got for their Leeds property from a design and development point of view, and I know that we're going to try and get there when we're in Leeds next week for UK Reef as well. But it was really nice, I think that a student accommodation operator got that particular award as well.
Speaker 1:And you know, I think there's two things about these awards. It's one it's hard work entering them. You know people that enter these awards and do successful put a lot of effort and time and resource into it. So it's not a quick kind of fill in a form and everybody gets shortlisted. That's not the case and having been a judge for property week awards before, it's really really hard work judging as well, there's no nepotism going on here and I know that's always been a suspicion but that that isn't the the case. So it's well worth entering if you're going to put the time and effort into it. But yeah, it was great seeing and so many people from the sector there as well.
Speaker 2:I've spoken to the guys at scape and yeah, they were, because they've run it two years on the trot now and and typically I think scape kind of keep their keep their heads relatively low. They just get on doing what they do, which is effectively developing building running really strong, really good pbsA properties in particular, and I know they're now in co-living as well. Looking down the list of people that won that are relevant to student, of course, and BTR, and I suppose BTR is, of course, relevant in students, given how many students live there. Moda, obviously they won BTR developer of the year. Scape, of course, student accommodation operator of the year, which is great. Some others that we sort of know of, say property consultants Other consultancies are available just to let you know, but of course Deborah's done a great job there.
Speaker 2:And then what else have we got down the list? Scape again, as you said, with their Residential Design Award, which I'm not that surprised about. They're pretty innovative. Not just I know they're separate businesses now in australia and uk and elsewhere, but but you know they have very much thought outside the box there. And then londonists at the agency of the year I think most pbsa properties will know londonist who are able to sort of separate and and shorten the term sessions and tenancy lengths for certain pbsa operators. They are clients of mine, so that is partly why I'm going down the list here. But well done to everyone. I think that's you know. I'd certainly like to be at those awards at some point next year, giving Deborah a run for her money in some way, shape or form, maybe.
Speaker 1:She was really, really surprised. She didn't even take the team with, so she was all on her own getting that award. She shouldn't be surprised, was all on her own getting that award, but it's what we really like.
Speaker 1:No, I know, but what we really like to see is some of those smaller consultancies and smaller agencies winning. You know we have entered awards previously in categories that don't really suit us, but there hasn't been one for us before. And when you're up against the likes of JLL and Knight Frank and Christopher Wakefield, you know small agencies and consultancies don't stand a chance. So we really really love it when they punch above their way.
Speaker 2:I think you might have been shortlisted at the same time for something else, but I was put into a category with JLL and Savills and Knight Frank, as I think it was a consultancy of the year or agency of the year. Yeah, that was it. They put us in as agency of the year and they started the sort of introduction to you know why this person was going to win, and it was like this huge focus on ESG and I had.
Speaker 2:I was sat with the downing table and they were all saying oh my god, dan, it's you, you're actually going to win this. I'm like there's absolutely no way. And then they carried on talking, saying like they've worked with these people and this, that and the other started to get up to accept my award and they were like it's JLL, congratulations. And so I very quickly sat back down again, but still, anyway, congratulations.
Speaker 1:DD has a very love-hate relationship with awards. Every year you're like we're not doing it again, but the Property Week Student Accommodation Conference. They have just launched a new category this year for consultancy of the year, so we don't have to enter agency of the year, which should hopefully separate out the the agencies and the consultancies. So I think I may have persuaded Dini to go for it again. One more try.
Speaker 2:Could you possibly write my?
Speaker 3:Yeah, if you pay us yes, though, we are going to go for it again. So, and it is much more suited to us, so it is yes, we'll go for it. See how we go.
Speaker 2:Exactly. I know that we've been campaigning for that for quite some time. It just didn't seem relevant. And there are so many brilliant suppliers, consultancies and you know small and large that really want a bit of a shout out. They might be specific marketing consultancies or fm suppliers or whatever it might be, but there's always such a focus on deal of the year or operator of the year and, yes, they're the big ones. Totally get that. But I do think that there's such a huge sector now and there are so many parts to it that breaking that out just makes a massive difference. Also, I think you've got a lot more chance of fulfilling the venue, because I think a lot of these agencies are quite happy to purchase a table. So, yeah, well worth expanding your awards entries and including at least consultancy of the year, but maybe supplier of the year as well. I can imagine there's quite a few that would like to go for that too.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and now we're going to hear from Utopi episode is brought to you by Utopia, the smart building platform that helps real estate owners protect the value of their assets.
Speaker 2:From ESG compliance to energy efficiency and resident engagement. Utopia turns real time data into action, making buildings better for people, planet and profit.
Speaker 1:If you're in asset management or operations and care about performance, utopi is your essential partner. Find out more at utopicouk. That's U-T-O-P-Icouk. And finally, we've got a very, very special discussion with Gillian MacLeese. She is a Living Asset Specialist across PBSA, btr, mmr and Social Housing. But the reason that we're talking to her today is for very topical reason is the housing bill, scotland. We are conscious that there are different rules of regulations in scotland and in ireland and we want to make sure that we talk about all of all of the regions and the housing bill in scotland and could be very, very significant. So we have a very, very special interview with her. I'm going to pass over to Dan to do that as well and thank you so much, gillian, for taking time out your very, very busy day to talk to us.
Speaker 2:I'm joined here with Gillian Whitleys, who is a PBSA expert and part of the National PBSA Task Force in Scotland, which sounds very glamorous, but, gillian, can you give us a bit more information on exactly what it is that the task force does in your role there?
Speaker 4:I can thank you very much for having me on, dan, so very much.
Speaker 4:Very recently there were some changes with regards to PBSA and which portfolio it sat in within the Scottish Government, whether it was within education or within housing, and it moved into the housing portfolio just at some point last year and there was a live consultation ongoing at the time with regards to the future proofing of our sector. How could we keep everyone happy, keep the students in good, affordable and sustainable homes but still provide all of the aspirations that we need to do with regards to net zero, wellbeing, health and keep the sector future-proof really? And they created this task force to help that, to get all of the main stakeholders in the room round the table discussing issues and non-issues. And because of the work that I had done with the Scottish Government with regards to Bill to Wren and that task force, and then, when I had moved back into PBSA, they had said, listen, can you come back and do it then? And that happened at the end, you know, halfway through last year.
Speaker 4:We've had a number of meetings since then, but we're still very much ongoing in our learnings and nothing much had changed. It was more about a learning about each other and what we're trying to achieve, because, as you can imagine, the National Union of Students were on that room and around that table there was lots of different opinions and what we needed to do but it was well imagined and I think that's that's one of the great things that that has happened in Scotland ultimately.
Speaker 2:I'm desperate for us to have in England and across Wales and ultimately across the whole of the UK, to really have that joined up thinking where the students are represented and also then the PBSA sector and the university sector are represented too. It's so important that we all get around the table to think about a national strategy for student housing in particular, and in terms of more recently, we're starting to see a bit of a focus on Glasgow as a market, and you know the need for PBSA there and what that looks like, and the supply demand ratios that seem to be more and more controversial every month, to be honest. But what I want to talk about is the rent caps that are potentially being brought in Now. I don't want to be too alarmist with that and be too sensationalist, but it has just piqued our interest over at Housed, and so I just wondered if you could give us a bit of an update as to where that's up to and what the potential fallout might be.
Speaker 4:Yes, so we were thrown a bit of a curveball last week. The Housing Bill Scotland, which is very much going through Parliament as we speak which is not new, nothing that's not expected has a very strong element of it with regards to rent control and rent caps, especially within rent pressure zones, with each council being able to appoint themselves as being in a rent pressure zone and then you'll be able to cap rents. That has been problematic for the btr sector in scotland and again, we all know that and you know I don't necessarily need to explain that to your audience because I'm sure everybody is well aware of it already but pbsa very much has been exempt from that because we have a different tenancy regime for student housing and non-student housing in Scotland and so it was never envisaged as being part of it and has always been carved out as slightly separate and having its own review. Hence the task force. But unexpectedly, at committee stage any bill going through the Parliament has to go through various stages of committees. Committee stage any bill going through the parliament has to go through various stages of committees and last week at one of our committee meetings an unexpected amendment to the bill at stage two requested that student housing be included, and from reading everything since and speaking to the people who even put the amendments in and speaking with the housing minister and various other sources, it wasn't expected to be anything problematic. It was just a probing question and wouldn't go anywhere.
Speaker 4:But for whatever reason, the people who put the amendment in and I won't start blaming names or calling out colours of politicians right now but for whatever reason, the person who put it in felt that the answer they were given wasn't sufficient enough and so therefore he couldn't't let it drop, and that managed to get some support from some other members of the committee and, surprisingly to everyone, pbsa suddenly was now included within the housing bill. Now, that was really really problematic, because all of the work that's been happening in Scotland for the last two years was to exempt other forms of institutionally funded housing, like bill to rent, like mid-market rent and single family housing, but because PBSA was never meant to be included, that's not in that exemption list. So we could have found yourself in a position where, suddenly, pbsa was the only form of institutionally funded housing in Scotland that was included in the housing bill, which basically means that your annual increases are capped at CPI plus one. Now, given. We know that PBSA isn't just a landlord. We do much more than just be a landlord and all of the arguments that we've used for bill to rent and other forms of institutionally funded housing to justify not having your increases caps, to find ourselves suddenly in that position was really really, really problematic. I am going to caveat that by saying now I don't want to talk ourselves into a doomsday situation here, because everything that's happened since has given me some confidence that there is no appetite in the Scottish Parliament to force this through and it really is more of a process now to have it removed.
Speaker 4:All of the parties have said no, we really really don't want PBSA to be included. We understand that it's different. We understand you do more than just being a landlord and the big major factor as well is that it would include university housing themselves. So Universities Scotland are also lobbying the government to say this is not going to work. You know we're facing a hard enough time here. Having our rents capped at CPI plus one could be fundamentally a death blow for us as well. This is not going to work. So for the first time they have all stakeholders within PBSA saying it's not working. So the politicians themselves really don't want to do. We've just found ourselves in this situation Unexpectedly the unintended consequences of a committee and now everybody's looking for ways to get ourselves out of it.
Speaker 4:That will the very long shot would be that we could get it out tomorrow.
Speaker 4:There's a second committee meeting tomorrow being held in Parliament and there's a number of subsequent amendments being discussed that would supersede the amendment from last week, so we could find ourselves that it was really just a blip for a week and it goes away.
Speaker 4:If that doesn't happen and there is a bit of debate in the parliament, I've spoken to lots of civil servants and I've spoken to a couple of msps from different colors and one thinks, no, we can get it to go away with this, and the other a little bit less confident.
Speaker 4:But we won't know for definite until tomorrow. Should we not be able to get it superseded tomorrow, it will then have to go to stage three, but we've been giving assurances that the government have no appetite to push this forward and all of the opposition parties, with the exception of one, have no appetite to push it forward because they recognize that we are different. But stage three is not due to happen until August or September, post the summer recess and, as you and I know, dan, you know that level of uncertainty for any period of time in an investment market could be really, really problematic and could put a bit of a temporary blip within the pipeline of PBSA across Scotland just in Glasgow, or potentially see PBSA buildings flip to other asset classes that are very likely to have an exemption to the rent caps I mean it's, it's politics, hey it's, it's that is a really it feels like a technicality.
Speaker 2:Let's hope that common sense prevails.
Speaker 2:I'd love to think that, but then, having read the government's recent white paper restoring control over the immigration system, I'm ever so slightly concerned that process may not be followed or that, as you said, there may be that delay which that delayed sentiment for pbsa development, even six months, three months that's pretty crucial, like we need every bet that we can get coming out the ground at the moment.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, but it's great that you're involved, it's great that there is a task force in the first place to really stand up for pbsa because, like I said, in england and wales we are completely lacking that and that is what needs to change. So I do hope that there will be some movement there at some point. It's bigger than it's bigger than any one party. I think that's the. I think that's the key thing, whether political or whether an operator, investor, developer. I think the more transparency and openness that we can see in terms of that data, the more likely we are to get the resolutions that we want and also the policies that we want. Because, firstly, no one wants rent caps. We've all seen that that doesn't work in btr. We know that that wouldn't work in pbsa anywhere.
Speaker 4:Just look at dublin just look at what's happened in btr in scotland know.
Speaker 2:Ultimately, the more that we can talk and share all of that information, the better. So, yeah, I just ask people to reach out to you and also feel free to reach out to us at Housed if you do have any data that may help the case and may well be with the Association of Rental Living, but let's see how we go so thanks ever so much for joining us on the podcast and we look forward to having you back again soon and hopefully with good news, yes, with good news.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fingers crossed. Thanks ever so much, Gillian.
Speaker 4:Excellent, Thanks Dan.
Speaker 1:And that's a wrap on all of the news from the shared living sector this week. Thank you to my student halls for being our headline sponsor for the season. Your support is hugely appreciated, and thank you to Utopia and Wash Station for coming on board and adding so much value to the content that we bring to the sector. If you work in the PBSA, etr, co-living, university living, hmo and university accommodation sectors and enjoy our podcast, please give it a rating and a review on your podcast channel of choice and we will see you again next week.