Housed: The Shared Living Podcast

The London Masterplan: What Makes The Capital Different? In partnership with Fusion Group

• Season 5 • Episode 1

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Sarah, Dan and Deenie are joined by Chris Cater, Richard Ward and Sarah Turner-Jones to talk about the London Masterplan. 

This episode was recorded in-front of a live audience at opening of the new Fusion PBSA building in Brent Cross Town.

The panel discuss why London is treated so differently to the rest of the UK:
- How are different boroughs in London reacting to PBSA?
- The trends and patterns that show London as a different market and specifically Greater London vs Central London
- Do universities have different needs for accommodation for their students in London?
- Marketing Brent Cross as a new town to students - with no history or reviews to build upon
- What else needs to be done in London to open up more opportunities for student living in less obvious spaces?

Find out more about Fusion:  Student Accommodation in Brent Cross, North London - Fusion Students

Discover Brent Cross Town: Brent Cross Town - Discover Brent Cross Town. 6,700 new homes, workplaces for 25,000, a new town centre, 50 acres of green parks & playing fields. 12 mins from Central London.




Speaker 1:

Hello everyone and welcome to this very special episode of How's the Shared Living podcast. Now today we are partnering with Fusion to celebrate the launch of their very special new PBSA in Brent Cross, London. Firstly, some introductions. I'm Dan Smith from Resi Consultancy and Verboflow AI.

Speaker 2:

I'm Deanie Lee from the Property Marketing Strategists.

Speaker 1:

And I'm Sarah Canning from the Property Marketing Strategists and I'm Sarah Canning from the Property Marketing Strategists and a very warm welcome to our special guests Sarah Turner-Jones, richard Ward and Chris Cater Hi.

Speaker 1:

We'll let you guys introduce yourself very shortly when you start your answers Now. Most importantly, thank you very much to Fusion for inviting us here Now. We saw Laura getting a little teary when she was thanked by Nigel just a second ago, and for good reason. This is an incredibly special building and I was talking to a few people earlier, rich Brenner among them, and I think you'd be really hard-pushed to beat this in the UK and Europe. The only thing you're missing is probably a swimming pool on top, but realistically, this is arguably the best PBSA in the UK in particular. So congratulations to the team at Fusion first and foremost, and thanks very much for inviting us here Now.

Speaker 1:

We had a great session earlier, talked about how Brent Cross was effectively a wasteland with a Toys R Us and quite how much the area has improved and is planning to be improved is really quite something. I think it's a really special and unusual story, so we'll dig into that in a little bit with each of our guests. But yeah, for our listeners who can't necessarily see the building we're in, it's definitely worth checking it out online. It is very, very special. Do come and visit here if you can and you get the opportunity. So it really does blend.

Speaker 1:

That sort of place to work, study. It's full of leisure facilities as well Plenty of residential homes, rental homes, acres of green space, all in an urban area of North London, london, northwest london. So very, very unusual, um, but today we are here specifically to talk about the london market and why it's such a hot topic. Now we hear all the time people talking about london and the regions in particular. Now, you know, sarah richard chris, why do you think that this is? You know, london is such an exceptional case and so different to elsewhere um.

Speaker 5:

So I guess, from a data standpoint, we again typically exclude london from kind of national analysis. One of the main reasons for that is price point. Clearly, london is obviously a lot more expensive than some of the regionals. Um, so that's, that's number one. I think the second one that is probably less well known but is definitely very relevant is the probably lack of a well-defined hmo market specifically for students. If you go to any of the regional cities, there are specific hmo markets designated for students. In london that's not really the case. Um, so those are the two, I guess, defining factors. We'll probably come back to transport links a bit later, so I'll leave that. Leave that for a little bit later, but those are two main points carry on um.

Speaker 4:

Hi everyone. I'm sarah turner, jones, cushman, wakefield. Um, mainly student accommodation universities, so we spend a lot of time with the universities in london navigating the london plan, which makes london very special. It's trying to deal with one of the kind of key issues about how anybody who is good enough to be in London can find a room, and I think that's one of the key points about London is it's an impossible Rubik's Cube of demand and supply. It's really hard to be able to find right locations, be able to put supply in the right place, because of the cost of land and the competition for land and now the cost of finance, and so all of the things lead people to be more creative about where they go, what kind of stock, but it then is down to what is going to be a really student friendly place that anybody who is a student in London would like to be in, and I think Vision have done a fantastic job here as part of Brent Cross being a fantastic utopian new mini city inside a city.

Speaker 1:

I'd agree. And, chris, what are your thoughts?

Speaker 6:

I think they've covered most of it. I think the the couple of bits that are particularly unique about London are quantity of universities. So you get an incredibly diverse student population, not only from an ethnic perspective, but you also get it from where they're studying. So you've got an awful lot of people that can commute to university from an awful lot of places. So that kind of structure that you may find elsewhere in the country where there may be one or two other universities in that town or city. As Richard said, you know HMO markets that are very, very clear. There isn't any of that. So there's an awful lot more diversity of choice within London. But also there's a restriction in choice as well because you kind of have to take what you can get from an affordability perspective and other bits and pieces. So it's a very unique place to try and to try and sell student accommodation.

Speaker 3:

We'll come back to that shortly, Chris. Sarah, I just wanted to go back to something that you said. I guess, when we're talking about London as well, we've got central London and we've got greater London and that has its kind of, I guess, challenges and demographics and challenges with that as well. So I guess how does the London Master Plan kind of feed into greater London and kind of the suburbs and the regions we're not just talking about central London.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, so every borough has a role to play and they all pretty much comply not all of them, but most of them comply with the principles of the London Plan, which is to be able to all schemes that come through. You have 35% of the rooms at 55% of the maximum student loan for people studying away from home in London Mouthful, but what that means is everyone has to think about viability from a provider's perspective. Where can I actually find a location where I can make those sums stack up? But the boroughs, all you know, they comply in principle, but they all add something on according to their own particular needs.

Speaker 4:

And I think, actually, when you, when you think about what boroughs are after, students are an important part of the community. They are footfall, they are different times of day, they bring youth, they bring the ability to stay longer than just being a student. So talent creation and community creation and vibrancy, and that all kind of feeds into the regeneration agenda of lots of councils, and so different councils take a different view as to how important that is. So your Westminster Council, you know they're already very vibrant. They don't really think of students as something which is a catalyst to something new, whereas what's happening in Barnet and Brent and you know what's already happened in Wembley. You know, you can see that students have become a real integral part of that community creation.

Speaker 2:

And do you find that different boroughs treat students differently and treat PBSAs differently and, yeah, some more supportive than others?

Speaker 4:

I think they all go through a cycle um. So some come in being incredibly enthusiastic, um and not knowing much um. But if you open the doors so for instance in southwark, which has transcended the london plan has asked people to go about their business in a different way. It's attracted an awful lot of applications from student providers and for a long time they were really happy about that because they were funding their c3 affordable accommodation for, you know, for the local community. But after that, you know, there's a lot of, there are a lot of students that have landed there and now they're asking for more diligence, really for their own selves, to make sure that that is still the right path for the future. So it's almost like each borough goes through its life cycle with students. Some are really still at the beginning, whereas some have come to a point where they're having a rethink.

Speaker 1:

Let's say, yeah and Richard, what's the data showing? Are there any trends or patterns that sort of show london as a very different market and specifically sort of greater london versus central london?

Speaker 5:

yeah, sure. So I think it's going to touch on the subjects of occupancy, which I know is everyone's favorite subject to talk about. Um, I think I mean looking nationally. I mean not to sugarcoat it too much. This this year has definitely been harder than in more recent years.

Speaker 5:

I know we came out of COVID massive growth, particularly in international postgrads, and that obviously helped a very strong lease up in Club 23 season that obviously has somewhat come to an end. Clearly, london has felt some similar issues, but it all comes down to the details. I mean, we're in, as you mentioned, an amazing scheme in a really great place in terms of transport links. So those schemes that will be successful are the ones that look at those details. And again, talking about London and Brent Cross in particular great transport links, fantastic product at a price that actually is very competitive if you look at London, and actually in a lot of cases, well under what you'd have to pay if you went to central London. So you put that together as a whole package that starts to become very interesting and it's those schemes that can essentially have all three of that triangle in terms of kind of price, products and place. They're the ones that are going to be successful. So I think certainly yeah, again, it's those schemes that will do well.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I mean our data show exactly the same. You know if you're in the right place and if you're very connected in terms of the tube lines. I mean it's almost like a heat map. You know the veins are hottest. You know close to the central core, you know central nervous system of the city. So if you're on a great transportation link and you've got the right product and you're in a student-friendly place, then you've nailed it. So we're seeing like big differential between the two.

Speaker 1:

You know people who are very close and getting it right and those who are a little bit more away from the transport network and do you think there's sort of a first mover advantage effectively to coming out here and and blazing a trail, I suppose, for student in the area?

Speaker 4:

I think this being 12 minutes from st pancras, I mean and the entire ethos of brent crosstown, it's so, it's huge, it's ambitious. It's, as I said, a mini city inside a city. I can't think of any other place in London where that's happened. It does take time to make a place, but once you've made it and once people can see it and feel it as they can today, you can totally get on board and I think that that journey is such a compelling one, and the fact that you are here at the ground floor and, you know, with Hallam coming, I think that's such a super proposition as well, because it's not just about the rooms, as it is about live work, play, study, everything in this location, and I think that is, and I has created the identity for this area, and I think Fusion being here is fantastic for that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's a truly going to be a sticky city, as they call it, and, chris, we'll come to you in a minute. I just want to go back to something that that Richard said. I guess that price differential between kind of Greater London and Central London are you, are you seeing it converge yet at all? Do you think that's going to happen, or are we still going to kind of see that kind of two-tier London PBSA market?

Speaker 5:

yeah, I think it, as always, will come down to the individual schemes. Obviously those schemes that are, as we've said, well priced, well placed, will probably push the rents. Those schemes that struggle to fill probably can't. So it's very hard to talk about data and aggregate as a whole and give you the necessary detail that you actually need to make those informed decisions.

Speaker 5:

I think, going back to something Sarah picked up although obviously we're all on this panel somewhere related to data and interest in data the bit that data doesn't pick up is that feeling. So again, the placemaking. You walk along here and immediately you get that feeling of green space. It's open, it's attractive, that's hard to put in a number and that's the bit that I think gives that extra edge that if you are maybe in central London and don't have great access to parks or green space, it's hard to kind of fit into a figure as such. So I think there probably will still be somewhat of a divergence, but it will come down to the individual schemes. Some schemes will be up, some schemes will be lower than that kind of average. So, yeah, as always, the devil's in the detail.

Speaker 4:

I think there's something in the fact that if you can get land cheaper or if you can differentiate on price within an entire ladder of rents, that's compelling. If everyone's all competing in the same space, it doesn't go that well. So being able to leave central London does give people the opportunity to compete in a different area of the market, and that is the name of the game at the minute.

Speaker 1:

Now we heard Richard say earlier it's been quite a tough year for some in PBSA this year, at which point all the agents left. But, Chris, how are you finding things in terms of obviously selling this property?

Speaker 6:

It's been relatively tough but it's got easier week by week by week. The market started slowly. It was you know, we've talked about this at fair length already but it's a new product in a new place. It's a new. Whilst Fusion's built student accommodation for a long period of time, left the market, it's come back to market this year.

Speaker 6:

So you put all of those things together and we were kind of fighting a bit of an uphill battle. There's really simple things like google maps didn't show this place existed until about six weeks ago. So you're trying to convince students to trust you when you don't have a brand to trust, when you don't have a building to show them and you don't have. You know, not even google's not supporting you to do that. But every week as we've moved on, the building's got better, the completion we've got closer and closer to having this amazing finished product that we're sat in um and people start to see that trust.

Speaker 6:

It can see the areas improving, uh, week by week as well. And you know we again we've talked about that first mover advantage. It makes it difficult right now, but it's going to give us a really, really strong position in the kind of five years to come. So I think that kind of longer term view from fusion that they are in this for the long term this isn't a kind of get it, flip it, sell it uh. Movement uh makes this makes this much, much more simple longer term. And you know, as I say, we we started slowly. We have seen an incredible amount of lease up in the kind of last kind of four to six weeks, and you know we're now kind of coming into this year in an incredibly strong position, which is super positive.

Speaker 1:

And how much do you think that's also down to affordability, Because you know the amenities here are, as I've said, pretty much second to none I've seen, but actually the rooms are at an affordable price point. Obviously, you know it's not zone one. How do you convince people, and international students, but also domestic students, that they don't have to live next to Big Ben or Buckingham Palace or whatever it might be?

Speaker 6:

I think it's just being really, really clear with your messaging and very strong with your communication. You know, I think it's very easy to sit here and assume that if you live, you know, in I'm not very good with london, so apologies, but you live in clapham, you can get to bloomsbury quickly. Not necessarily the case, right. So it's about going through those moments. You might live in zone two, um, but if you're in the wrong bit of zone two and you're an institution that's the other side of london, it could take you a week to get there. You know. So whilst we, we may be in a new part of London that hasn't had that like kind of you know, or doesn't have that noticeable, saleable point of being zone one, zone two and those kind of routes, when you start communicating students properly and, uh, you know, having a very, very clear message um, it's it. You know, long term it's quite easy to kind of show that it's it's, it's a really accessible part of London to now live in. It may not have been, but it is now.

Speaker 3:

Are you getting the sense of excitement from students that they're in something at the beginning that it's kind of going to develop, you know, around them?

Speaker 6:

Yeah, absolutely. Again, you know we've seen Wembley, we've seen those developments of those other areas. So I think students have got. If they're really interested and care about what's going on, they can see that it's coming and what's happening here, which is incredibly exciting. And you know who wouldn't want to live in a brand new building, in a brand new location and be like I was the first. That was my room. You know I'd be telling everyone years down the line that you know 604 was me, that's mine, and you know I think that's definitely happening here.

Speaker 4:

I think also there's an element of realism that comes in from working and talking with the universities. They know, and everyone knows, you can't all live next to Big Ben, but what you do have to do is think about what that travel time looks like. Is it reasonable? Does it look like I can get a good value for money, amazing quality product somewhere that is very commutable? And I think people do have to make choices and they do have to think about all of those options, but in the end they come to terms with the fact that everyone in London has to commute something and that everybody's trying to make it as easy as possible, to make it really great for students.

Speaker 1:

So what do you think those differences are? For? You know, do universities have different accommodation needs in London compared to the rest of the the country? Obviously you've talked about commuting there, but um, are there some other differences that that London universities have?

Speaker 4:

there's some things that are very similar between all universities. They don't just house one type of student at one price point. They house and have to house everyone at every single type of uh you know all all kinds of diverse needs and all kinds of price points and that makes them special. The london plan helps to cater for that at the kind of, you know, affordable end of things. But the the. I think the thing that is special about london is it's really hard Own the whole student experience. So if you're in a campus somewhere out in the country then you do have a lot more kind of control over how things go, whereas here you're in a big place, people are coming from all over the world and you're having to kind of help them navigate a much bigger system that you only have a little bit of control over. And I think universities do get that in London. It's a very different way of operating.

Speaker 2:

And I think that's absolutely true and I think what you're saying around, this is a new place and you're building up that reputation and what it is, and I think we've got to encourage more students to understand that there's lots of different places in London to live and if you've got those transport links, you can get there. What else do you think needs to be done in London to open up more opportunities for students living in less obvious spaces?

Speaker 4:

I think it's back to something that Chris said Information, advice, guidance, understanding, open days, tours, talking to people. You know, until you can go there, you can't imagine it is. It's one of those things that will continue to evolve, because there is student accommodation coming up in all kinds of places and when you, when you look at, you have to look at things so far down the line. Sometimes you're just looking at a planning application and it's in a place that's, you know, not had any investment for a long time, but you realize that in five, six, seven years, this is an area of massive, tall buildings, huge regeneration, you know. So people are taking a leap of faith in some cases, but I think it's about just communicating the messages to your partners, collaborators, peers as much as possible um to bring it to life at the right time.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, I think it's add to that. I know, sarah, you talked about the differences in boroughs. I think, definitely, education is obviously key and obviously, depending on which boroughs you speak to and local authorities, you have very different experiences, something we've discussed before, I know, dan, you've mentioned before. But more joined-up thinking, so so more cohesive approach to the whole of london not this very much one borough has one approach, one borough has something completely different and just working together to kind of build that you know supply that needs to come. That would definitely be a benefit and part of ageist education actually making sure those boroughs understand why this is the best way to actually look at it, um, would certainly help and chris.

Speaker 1:

What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 6:

I agree with everything that's been said. I think partnership is key. I think it's very, very easy in this industry to get quite insular. Whether you're a university or a PBSA provider, whatever you might be. It's very easy to go into your own shell and look after your own interests, but that doesn't necessarily look after the students' interests or the kind of wider markets interest. So I think having those early conversations with, uh, universities, councils, boroughs, agents, whatever it might be, all of those kind of supporting factors that can go into creating a student, uh, you know, a student community in a place like this that, as you say, you know, on the surface, on paper, it might not make as much sense it really does, but those are the conversations you need to be having so people fully understand it and no matter who you approach, who you talk to, you'll talk to someone that understands the value of, of this proposition, um, and, and what it can deliver to students to, to provide them something that's a bit a bit different.

Speaker 3:

I think there's a trust element isn't there as well? It's. You know we're talking about. You know you've mentioned wembley. We obviously got Brent Cross and you know they didn't have a footprint before. But the more students that live here, the more people that live here. There is evidence. There is, you know. There is trust, you know, we know international students. You know. Look at, you know safety and security. You see, well, the more evidence there is about the safety and security, the more trust there will be, and you know and it will. You know it will follow really, and I guess it's down to all of us here and the panel to create some amazing kind of PR about living in London and Greater London and living in Brent Cross. You know it's had a bit of a bad rep recently, you know, in the press and there's so many positive stories, I think. So you know, I think we're really looking forward to seeing the people that are living and working here and just building that kind of ecosystem. I'm sure I'll go back to you, dan.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so there's a lot of PBSA operators in and around Sheffield who are pretty furious with Sheffield Hallam right now. But what do you think makes Sheffield Hallam feel that Brent Cross is the most attractive place for their London campus? What is it about this area?

Speaker 4:

I think it's about the identity of the place and I think it's about the collaborations that they've been working on in the local area. I can't say lots because I know too much, because we've helped with it, but I think you know, when you're looking around for somewhere where you can kind of capture an additional set of international students who perhaps may not have gone to Sheffield I don't think they should be, I don't think the people of Sheffield should be furious. I think there's a lot of branch campuses that are set up in London to tap into this international hub of education, this international hub of education. But you choose your place based on the identity you want to have, how you want your students to inhabit the space, how you want them to interact with, living and learning. And you know they chose, they chose here on purpose and that is absolutely testament to the place.

Speaker 1:

And Chris, you know how are you seeing that, with Sheffield's decision to set up a campus, effectively a satellite campus?

Speaker 6:

Yeah, I think it, as Sarah said, it's. It's that place. So there's a uniqueness to being here. You know, in the nicest way possible, if you're a student going to Sheffield Hallam University in London, it's not. You know the Sheffield aspect is going to sound really harsh. The Sheffield aspect probably isn't the most important aspect of that. It's being in a place in London. You know there are many satellite campuses in London that people choose to study at. So giving yourself a unique kind of selling point as Sheffield Hallam to be in London is the right approach to take.

Speaker 6:

You know why would you choose Sheffield Hallam over you know another satellite campus from another university that isn't London based? Well, because it's here and because you want to be here and you can see the value of this place and what everything it has to offer. That is the draw compared to anyone else. You know, if you're studying at UCL, you're going to UCL. You're studying at LSE, you're studying at LSE. You know there's a choice. You're very much making a choice to go there. There's probably less of that place location attachment to Sheffield if you're willing to study in London. So you know what is the attachment and it's this.

Speaker 1:

And it's certainly very helpful for you. I'm sure to have that satellite campus next door Delighted. So, richard, obviously, at Stu Rents you have a huge amount of data. I know you do too, sarah, at Richmond and Wakefield. But what are you seeing this year that's different in London compared to last year.

Speaker 5:

Going back to occupancy again, not to dwell on it too much Through our survey. We obviously do see it has been harder. Again, can't say too much, come and join the survey if you want to get the actual data itself. So yeah, it's definitely been challenging for some but, as I said before and I don't want to repeat myself too much, it really comes down to the individual asset in the scheme, equally the operator. So again, if you start to look for correlations between price and performance, sometimes you'd expect that and other times you'll get one operator that blows everyone else out of the water. So really, the quality of the operation again teams and the scheme itself does potentially have a huge impact and again, that's difficult to know upfront unless you have a kind of existing experience with the operator.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, and, all importantly, where do you see things going over the course of the next two to three years? That's the ultimate question yeah, I've gone off script here, sorry, thanks, cheers.

Speaker 5:

as we know, london is very reliant on international students, so that is the key unknown, I think. Bringing it back to pure data, the challenge with the industry as a whole is quality of data, particularly those reported by universities. I won't bang on around HESA and delays there, but I think better sharing of up-to-date quality data from universities around student intakes would help everybody Local authorities, operators, investors and really people don't want misallocation of capital, but if the data's not there, that's what happens. So I think the better data we can get with collaboration with universities would would certainly help, and some are more open than others.

Speaker 4:

again, depends on who you speak to I think some of this is about being able to like tap into universities on a kind of one-to-one basis, which is heartily encouraged by the London plan, and people do open their books for partnerships, you know, to make sure that people are making good, well-informed decisions. It's not big data that's publicly available, it's data that you can unlock by having good conversations with good universities, and I think that is the way to mitigate some of the risk really around investment decisions that are made.

Speaker 1:

Amazing, and that is a wrap. Thank you so much to our panelists for sharing the past and future of Greater London PBSA Investments. It gives us really good context as to this pretty spectacular development and Brent Cross town and the innovation and the transformation that the place is seeing. Sarah and I will typically go to the opening of an envelope. It takes a lot more for Dini to come from the southwest, so I'd just like to thank very much the Fusion team for inviting us to host and record our very first live podcast for the team. We thoroughly enjoyed ourselves. We hope everyone has listened as well and we'll see you next week for a brand new season of housed. Thank you very much.