Housed: The Shared Living Podcast

Kitchens not Gyms Build Real Community, Tech vs Humans - what do tenants want? Keeping Residents 'Sticky' in BTR and Empowering the Next Generation of Real Estate Professionals

• Season 5 • Episode 7

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This week the hosts, discuss what can be learnt from Appleby Blue Almshouse. A high-quality social collective housing for older people in Bermondsey, which has recently been awarded the RIBA Stirling Prize 2025 for it's outward-facing, community-first design. 

They discuss:
- Reducing loneliness
- Tech vs humans
- Keeping residents ‘sticky’
- Empowering the next generation

Stay up to date on Housed podcast via its LinkedIn page.

Dan Smith is Founder of RESI Consultancy and Co-Founder of Verbaflo.AI Good Management.

Sarah Canning and Deenie Lee are Directors and Co-Founders of The Property Marketing Strategists - Elevating Marketing in Property.

Thank you to our season four sponsors:
MyStudentHalls - Find your ideal student accommodation across the UK.
Utopi - The smart building platform helping real estate owners protect the value of their assets.
Washstation - Leading provider of laundry solutions for Communal and Campus living throughout the UK and Ireland.

SPEAKER_02:

Hello everyone and welcome back to House, the Shared Living Podcast, or should I say, Bomb Dia. We are in Lisbon today, or at least Sarah and Deanny are. I'll be joining them tomorrow. And we're going there for the Class Foundation conference, which starts in earnest day after we record. So we'll bring you all of the highlights from that next week, and I am sure there will be plenty. So let's get on with the show. I'm Dan Smith from Resi Consultancy and Verberflow AI.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm Deanny Lee from the Property Marketing Strategists. And I'm Sarah Canning from the Property Marketing Strategists.

SPEAKER_02:

And now a quick word from our headline sponsor, MyStudent Hall.

SPEAKER_01:

Season five of Housed, sponsored by MyStudentHools.com. List your properties commission-free and reach thousands of students searching for their university home.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks very much to Dan and the team from MyStudent Halls. They have been supporters of House since the beginning. We're incredibly grateful so that they're here once again as headline sponsors of season five. We know that anyone working in student accommodation is busy budget setting at the moment. So make sure you do get in contact with Dan and the team at MyStudent Halls to get your properties listed and start getting those leads in for the 26-27 season. My God, 26-27, how has that come around so quick? Also, a huge thank you to Wash Station and Utopia for coming back and sponsoring House once again. More from them later on. So, Sarah and Deanny, let's get on with the show. Now we have seen more recently that the Rita Sterling Prize for 2025 went to Applebee Blue Arms Houses. Now that was named Brett uh Britain's best new building. It's an over 65 community in Bermanse, and it brings together all of the brilliant things about co-living that we love, specifically for later living. Now, all of those things that combat loneliness that we think BTR and PBSA developers should pay attention to, they are included in this development. So it's got glazed corridors, but they look out onto the street in London. And these corridors, they're different types of seating, so residents can kind of meet spontaneously and sit down for a chat or play cards or read a book or just whatever they want to do, have a look out onto the streets. And there are plenty of really good community spaces here. So something that we're all obviously passionate about is getting residents out of their rooms and meeting each other to obviously combat that loneliness. So yeah, Sarah, Deeney, did you have a chance to have a look at that? And what did you think?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I I obsessed over this. I think I probably lost a whole weekend just looking up articles about this building because I I loved it so much. And I I genuinely believe that there are concepts here that the wider shared rented living community can can take on. I don't think any of it is specific to later living, to be honest. They they've taken the view that the community kitchen is at the heart of the building, which we discussed, didn't we, on our webinar about the future of student living that we did with our youth forum a few weeks ago, that actually so much is always made of the communal spaces. But actually, if we think about our homes that we've grown up in and everything you kind of know about kitchens being the heart of the community, we don't really see that in BTR and Co-Living and PBSA. Quite often that kind of shared kitchen space is very much behind a closed door. Whereas what this building's done is it's bought it into the middle of the building so people can kind of see it, they can drop by, they can have conversations, they can see what's going on. Um and in this building they've brought in people from outside the community to cooking lessons, they've got had youth groups come in and they're using product produce from their rooftop vegetable garden. So I really, really m love that. They've also got a crafts room, an IT suite and a library. And they also, interestingly, have two studios for students and researchers that they can rent out as well because people are doing like loads of research kind of with the later living community. It was a collaboration between the architect, the client, and Southwark Council, and they benefited from an off-site Section 106 agreement with the rest of the funding coming from the charity who own and manage the property. So it means that the rent counts as affordable as it falls within local housing benefit levels. The architect said it has become increasingly common to relocate over 60s away from urban centres, whereas Appleby Blue allows people to remain in their community and continue to be an active part of it through the integration of the design with a programme of activities to improve well-being and nutrition, mitigating isolation. So, yeah, I just think that there's so many things that that should be taken away from those things. One thing that's really interesting is the social programme is led by a food anthropologist. So there's someone really I know, even I mean, what an amazing job that is. I want to be a food anthropologist. But it means that there's a specialist person that's kind of been bought in to kind of look at what would benefit kind of that ecosystem of those residents. So yeah, literally couldn't find anything that I didn't love about it. What did you love about it, Deanny?

SPEAKER_05:

I think for me it says what good design can do. If this building can win the Reba Prize, it just shows that actually putting that thought into our how people actually live and what they need. You know, we've got lots of great architects working in the sector with with brilliant ideas, but often they can't blossom or grow into anything because of value engineering or because of budgets and because of the tight constraints we have around lots of things. So but also the fact that this is affordable says something, you know, that actually we can build something. And obviously there's been funding from different areas to make this happen, but it there's still a way to make affordable accommodation for this community.

SPEAKER_03:

I think the other thing that I really like about it is they're making it part of the community. So if a traditional alms house building is built like in a a kind of a curve, quite often overlooking gardens. My dad lives in in one and it's gorgeous, but it's inward facing. They've turned the concept around to make it outward facing so the residents can see the street. They still most of them grew up and you know raised their families in Bermansey. So they're they're still very much looking at that the heart of London where they live and where they grew up and that connection. And again, that's something that I feel like with all due respect, I guess a lot of our buildings in PBSA, BTR, and co-living, they don't necessarily have that local connection. They could be in any city, they're lovely and you know, people are very happy living there, but I often think they kind of maybe miss that connection to the place, something that kind of anchors them. Um and especially if people are going to university, I think, what a shame. Like if I had invested in going to Edinburgh University or Bournemouth University, I'd kind of want to feel some kind of connection to that place because the place is you know one of the drivers to make those decisions.

SPEAKER_02:

That's something that I think we're not particularly good at in PBSA and BTR in particular, but there are buildings like Limelight in Liverpool, which has a, you know, really pays homage to Liverpool. There's a real love story to Liverpool on the on the walls there, and it really kind of celebrates the community. I think really opening those spaces up to the community is absolutely key as well, because that you know, that's absolutely pivotal to combat loneliness. So it's great for later living, but I do think there's an opportunity to integrate students better, firstly into their out of their rooms and into their properties, so that you're building a community there, but then also then making sure that they become part of the community with you know shared amenities and looking at those services and and making sure that they really can interact with the community. It then sits very well with a sort of CSR or ESG type strategy too. One thing with student HMOs though, I'm starting to I'm starting to hear about landlords already trying to combat the renters' rights bill and the perceived drop in well, reduction in tenancy lengths there, which is of course going to impact their revenue. You could either push the rents up if you really want to, to uh make up for that potential shortfall. Obviously we're yet to see what that looks like yet. But I'm hearing that they are starting to cannibalise, some of them anyway, starting to cannibalise shared living spaces. And we saw that on BBC News literally yesterday, where there was a lot of talk of general HMOs and some student HMOs getting rid of the shared living spaces, so a lounge effectively, and turning that into a bedroom to make an extra, you know, revenue stream. And I think that is something where if HMO does go along those lines, it will not necessarily work well in its favour. And by that I mean there's affordable. Yes, we want to make sure that we have affordable product, but this isn't this isn't sort of pushing that HMO product into the sort of affordable category for you know beyond where it is now. It's just trying to make up for the loss that landlords are seeing. So I think if you are a student HMO landlord, please don't look at doing that. I I I really do think, you know, that is a bit of an appeal. I really do think we need to make sure that we are creating that sense of community across multiple areas for students, whether it be student HMO, BTR, PBSA, for example, and we do need to start focusing very much on that sense of community, and you can't do that by not having any shared living. Um, so yeah, just just my my thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. I mean it's also not what the Renters Rights Act is about. It's about kind of making renting better for tenants, not worse, and that sounds like worse. And it it it brings back a memory of mine of when we had an intern working with us over from France, and she she came to this country, and I can't remember which way round it happened, but it transpired that she was she found somewhere to rent, not that far from Bermansey actually. Um but when she arrived, it was basically they'd they'd sectioned off a piece of the kitchen with a curtain and that was her bedroom. And that, you know, and that's why now across London there's HMO licenses and there's more regulation to stop people doing that. And in the end, actually, I ended up taking this intern into my own home for a month or so to she could find somewhere suitable to live, not behind a curtain in a kitchen that's a shared kitchen. So yeah, hopefully there is that's a minority of people that are doing that because that isn't what it was about.

SPEAKER_03:

What do you two think about PBSAs not having a living area within their kitchen? That literally a shared flat and a kitchen with a dining room, but not having that kind of soft seating sort of TV socialising area. Do you think that's okay or not okay? Bearing in mind, I guess, that most of them have got lots of great amenities and lots of other social space?

SPEAKER_05:

I've always had a view on this, that it for me the flat is your home and the other spaces, communal spaces are for socialising in bigger environments. So for me, the preference would always be is there somewhere that you could do everything that you can do in a home in your flat environment? And that's always my my preference, and that's why I've always thought that PPSA needs to go down a roof providing more of a HMO offering than that institutionalized feel of corridors and a functional kitchen, but not always something that is a relaxing kitchen, you know, with bright lights and all that kind of stuff, the stuff that we've talked about in the past.

SPEAKER_02:

I It's difficult. It's partly why I'm not a massive fan of two dios, because two dios typically don't have that living space. They have shared kitchen and dining table, and then two rooms off of that. You know, we we need to really get better at that sense of community in design. There are some brilliant architects and designers out there. We're, you know, we're not we're not preaching to them. And I think that most new developments are considering that. But there's some pretty old, tired developments out there that really aren't able to foster that sense of community because they aren't able to bring residents out of their rooms into those smaller apartments, and we know that they really like that. Like if you go downstairs, you can't just sit there and expect, you know, all 350 people to come past you and become your friend. But your smaller apartment, maybe it's four, maybe it's eight, maybe it's ten people, if that's just if you're only meeting at dinner time and the rest of the time you're shut in your room watching Netflix or playing playing games or whatever it might be, then that that for me is totally missing the point on the sense of community that we have that opportunity to build in PBSA. So I yeah, I I I think that we still need that. As much as I, you know, we want to focus on the space and the affordable, and I know that space is money, etc., but you know, there there does come a line where you value engineer space at the expense of community and ultimately at the expense of resident happiness and therefore retention rates. So yeah, I I'm a bigger I'm a big fan and a big advocate of having, you know, a sort of lounge dining room rather than just your dining room. I just don't think that works. I don't think it's appealing.

SPEAKER_05:

Um I just wanted to say I was in Porto at the uh weekend and I worked from the social hub on Monday in Porto and it it was amazing. And I paid for a day pass so I could be part of that community for the day, which meant I had access to the kitchen, which is used by the actual residents there. And when I went in to make a cup of tea around lunchtime, it was buzzing. And everyone was in there cooking their lunch, eating all different things, but sitting in groups of people, there was a range of people, uh you know, international people from across the globe, but there was also, you know, co-workers there, there was people like me who would just stop in for the day, and it was just there was a real sense of community there, and that's something that you know we've been in a lot of PBSA across the UK, and it's something I've never seen in the UK, that just sense of vibe and community, but just felt welcoming and felt I was perfectly, you know, I I was on calls most of the time and I was there, and I felt perfectly comfortable doing those calls in that kind of shared environment with loads of different people from all walks of life coming and going.

SPEAKER_03:

When my stepdaughter Bethany was looking at different universities, that was the one thing that really surprised her was that the kitchens were just kitchens. She had her room and then she had somewhere to cook and that that was it. And you kind of think in a lot of university accommodation buildings, they don't even have a lounge in their flat. It's literally just, you know, just kitchen. And it's even worse, I guess, in a university, because you know, arguably, if you're in a shared living building and you do want a kind of lounge environment and you don't have that in your flat, you probably could go down in your slippers and you know, and sit on a sofa. But in a university, you can't do that. And she found that really, really surprising and that for her signified a lack of home. It didn't feel like home. It felt institutional, it's felt it felt functional.

SPEAKER_02:

I have to just say that, you know, at the risk of sounding like a bit of a fangirl for Charlie McGregor and Frank and the team at the Social Hub, they are absolutely nailing it. And if you haven't been to a social hub property, you must go there because there are some tenets that you know I work to with all of the consultancy that I do, and I make sure that those threads are pulled on with strategic work that we do. So with we're looking at sustainability. Well, social hub are B Corp. So you know that their properties are sustainable, that operation is ongoing sustainable. That's the highest calibre of certification that you can get right now. Then you've got sort of affordability and flexibility baked in together. You know, uh you they are mixing up tenancy lengths, they have, you know, shorter term, they have the sort of hotel license and the focus on that sort of daily rates. Then they have the student rates as well, so you're more core 51, 43 weeks. And you're able to blend it. This is what students want. They want that flexibility, they also then want the affordability. And by offering flexibility, you're also offering affordability because they can check out when they want. They're not beholden to this 43 or 51-week contract, as some el uh some others are. So if you get the opportunity, go to Glasgow, stay in them. I I try and stay in them where whenever I can. And I think it's just a massive opportunity for PBSA operators to learn from a European operator that you know, that they started in Europe in the Netherlands and then branched out Italy and Portugal and elsewhere. And I think that's where we really have to start thinking outside the box because they're stealing a march on absolutely every other operator out there when it comes to the design, the flexibility, the affordability, and just the way that they run their properties. So fangirl moment over. But now let's hear from our sponsor, Utopia.

SPEAKER_04:

This episode is brought to you by Utopia, the smart building platform that helps real estate owners protect the value of their assets.

SPEAKER_02:

From ESG compliance to energy efficiency and resident engagement, utopia turns real-time data into action, making buildings better for people, planet, and profit.

SPEAKER_03:

If you're in asset management or operations and care about performance, utopia is your essential partner. Find out more at utopia.co.uk. That's utopi.co.uk.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks very much to Ben and Jonathan and the team. We're looking forward to seeing you all out and in Lisbon at the class conference. We know how important Utopia is becoming to PBSA, BTR, and co-living operators and investors, giving them real-time insights and data into energy and how to make sure that you're really moving the needle on that student engagement when it comes to sustainability as well. So thanks very much to Utopia for sponsoring this season again. So, Sarah Deany, I know that you guys want to talk about your Property Marketing Strategists Youth Forum webinar. What sort of key insights do you want to pull out from that and and what's really kind of made people taut after you've uh after you've published it?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I wanted to kind of link it to what we were talking about, and it's going to be completely contradictory to what we were just talking about. But some of the things that the students told us in the research that we did would indicate that, I don't know, maybe some of this community stuff is kind of forced. And, you know, what what do they want? Because, you know, every operator, every university wants to make sure that students aren't being isolated. But there's certain things, wasn't there, Dinny, that that kind of came out of the survey that you kind of thought, well, actually, they want community, but they want it in the right way, and they want it on their terms. So, for example, one of the things that that caused quite a lot of conversation when we launched it on the webinar was around parcel lockers. And they want their parcels to be after, and they want to collect them when they want to collect them, but they don't want a human to do it. They want a box to do it, they want technology to do it, they don't want to deal with a human. So we had this whole debate on the webinar about why that that is. And I think the conclusion that everyone came to was it's not meaningful engagement handing a parcel over. And I know that particularly the PBSA sector has resisted moving away from that because they feel like actually it's really nice to talk to them. But what the students kind of told us that's not meaningful engagement and it's not actually very convenient, and that's not what they want. So I think where we got to on the webinar was there are better things that that member of staff can be doing. And also, it's a bit of a rubbish job, isn't it? Being a CSA or being front of house and just having to deal with parcels all day. That's surely not developing someone's skills and retaining them. Like it's not really a job that I kind of think, oh yeah, I'm gonna stay in the sector for, you know, 15 years to do that.

SPEAKER_05:

Well, I think the problem is it's it's got to such a high volume that you now need one person to do it all day long. Otherwise, no one else can get their job done because they're constantly in productive people. So it's it makes sense for to it to be technologised. And I think one of the comments we made on the webinar was around the fact that we, when we buy from Vintage, just go to a locker box and pick it up. And so why why would we not expect the next generation to want exactly the same? So I think it is it's one of those things, I guess, that you constantly got to challenge what we thought before. And as Sarah said, I think, and as we said on the webinar, it gives the opportunity for your team to go and do something much, much more meaningful around building that community or facilitating that community, which is much better than just handing it on.

SPEAKER_02:

Interestingly, we've we've just seen Ask For, the the sort of leading PBSA and BTR broadband provider purchase parcel safe place. So they are kind of trying to think of how they can be that all-encompassing service to students but also to operators too. Now, when it comes to uh taking parcels in and giving parcels out, there are micro interactions, and I think that so I read Neil Burton did a really interesting piece on this. I don't know if you had a chance to read it. Neil Burton is the CEO of Collegiate UK. So he was he was basically saying we have we have to fill these gaps in service, and they are, you know, with little micro interactions, and that is going to be the needle mover when it comes to whether your student wants to or your resident wants to stay on with you or not. And I think it was a really interesting piece, so well worth checking out. I think he's put it on his LinkedIn profile, so Neil Burton from Collegiate UK. But I do think there is an opportunity to, admittedly, they are very small interactions, but to really make sure that you're checking in with the students to check to let them know that there's an event going on, not just like what password number or name or whatever, then hand it over right by. I think that's where really good training comes in. I think really good hiring of people comes in, and we have to do a better job of it because all the technology in the world is great. You can automate a lot of these things. And with you know, even with the understanding of AI that that I have and how streamlined that could make operations, it's all about the teams. It's going to be even more about the teams as as it gets more and more competitive. So I I think there's a real opportunity there.

SPEAKER_05:

I just want to say our webinar and our research wasn't about parcel lock analysis. We did a small piece of research into what students want from future accommodation. We tried really hard to try and kind of say, forget everything you know, what do you think the future accommodation needs or will have, or where should it be going? We did it in a different way. We normally do a survey and then we do a focus group to kind of test the results we got from the survey. But we did it the other way around. So we did the focus group first to try and get those ideas to then test them in the survey. I mean, overwhelmingly, we didn't get anything that was groundbreaking in terms of the future homes will have this. And it was very much consistent with all of our research that we've done around what young people want from a home, is very much just the basics done really, really well. I think the interesting things that came out of it, which were great ideas, which we've probably spoken about in the past, and though Sarah and I definitely have, around air drying spaces. Like actually, what there's many clothes that can't go in tumble dryers, where do you put those things, though? How do you get them dry? So actually, can we have more air drying spaces in buildings? When it came to sustainability, all the things that people spoke about, like rainwater harvesting, solar panels, things that they thought should be on accommodation in the future is already there, which goes to what we were constantly talking about, as you need to tell people that this stuff is there. You know, we've got lots of great buildings that have got lots of green technology in, but we just don't tell people enough about it. So there's definitely more that we can do about that.

SPEAKER_03:

We also asked, and which links to what we were talking about before, who they want to live with, and and we thought let's start kind of pushing these kind of questions about do they just want to live with students or do they want to live with non-students? Because obviously we've had a lot of conversations about why students might be living in BTR, and that was quite mixed as well, wasn't it? They they do some people don't just want to live with students, and then the other thing linking to that is there was a big proportion, I think it was about 26% that said they don't want to move out at the end of their degree, and there was about another 26-27% that said they don't know. So again, we're starting to actually have students verbalise some of those reasons why maybe PBSA is too restrictive. It's either that they don't just want to live with students, and we've done other pieces of research, um particularly with universities private for for them to use, but there's been quite a few people that won't live in student accommodation because they have a partner that isn't a student, and maybe that's why they want to live in BTR. And then also they might want to stay, if they know that they're staying in that city or they've got a job lined up or they've got a working visa, then why would they want to move out again? You know, they might have moved two or three times by the time they get to the end of their degree, and actually they just want to stay somewhere and and put down roots. You can download it from our website and um you can watch back the webinar on our property marketing strategies YouTube channel as well.

SPEAKER_05:

And if you want a copy of the presentation we gave, then drop one of us a note and we'll get that to you. But it's some interesting research. It's a small subset, but I think it's it's an interesting marker of kind of where things could go or what what students want.

SPEAKER_02:

Awesome. So go and download that from the property marketingstrategists.co.uk uh and do get involved. Uh and if you're looking for sponsors, Sarah Deany, for the next one, I'm not sure if you are actually or not.

SPEAKER_03:

We absolutely are. We we're just we've just completed our final one for the year, which is on the cost of living, which will be coming out soon. And unless we get a sponsor for 2026, sadly, it will be our last youth forum. Um it's great exposure for anybody who wants to partner with us, as we quite often get asked to speak at conferences about it as well as doing these webinars and all over social media. So the exposure that a brand can get and through working with us on the Youth Forum is quite considerable. And we love partners that can actually kind of contribute to these topics and these questions and get really involved in the data as well, you know, rather than just sticking a logo on our stuff.

SPEAKER_05:

And the data is adding real value to the sector, and we set out a mission to share that for free, and we want to keep doing that, and that's kind of why we really, you know, we hope someone will come and partner with us to enable us to do that, because we know that people take the reports, read the reports, and are working to adjust kind of how they deliver accommodation through those reports. So it's important work, I think.

SPEAKER_02:

I agree, I second that because uh I have clients of mine send that to me. So, you know, as if as if I don't speak to you every single day. So, yeah, do keep do please keep doing that. Do get in touch with the team uh to make sure that that can continue into 2026. But now a very quick word from Wash Station.

SPEAKER_00:

Washstation proudly sponsored this episode of Housed. We provide best in class laundry solutions that complement your buildings. Washstation. Smart, green, clean.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks very much to Wash Station for sponsoring this season of Housed. Again, we really are very grateful for your support. Air drying spaces, John and the team. If you can have a look into those as well, that will be much appreciated. But you know, I think the the I know the tagline is smart, green, and clean. So, or smart, clean and green, one of the two. But do please get in touch with John and the team at Wash Station if you are having a look at your laundry facilities, or you just want to quote. Sarah, I know that you went to the QX Global Rental Living Insights uh event at the Shard in London. Uh I was invited, but it was just towards the end of my paternity leave and I couldn't drag myself away. But uh I have been to that event. It is fantastic. So QX are the leading provider of outsourcing services, particularly accounting services to a lot of PBSA operators, large and small, to be honest with you. And they put on this event with various different people each year. I think a few times a year, actually. I've I think I've been a couple of times. But what was it like this time around?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it was it was great. I really enjoyed it. I like you, I've been to the the event before. It's a real nice mix of people, I think, um, in the audience. I really am beginning to really love those events that are like a short panel session and some networking. It's quite easy to fit into your day, sometimes a little bit more so than you know, than than a whole day. I'll start with the most controversial point because we're running out of time and I'd love to see your face when I tell you what I heard on stage.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh god.

SPEAKER_03:

One of the panelists said there needs to be more PBSA so students stop living in BTR to free up more flats for normal renters. Where do you start?

SPEAKER_02:

Who the hell said that? No, you know.

SPEAKER_03:

I feel for their integrity, I won't mention it, but anyone that was there will know.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_03:

So that my eyebrows shot up at that point because I just thought it was it just showed a real lack of understanding of the sector, really. Um, which is a sh it it was a a shame. I think the put that person that said it wasn't I I wasn't probably one of the experts, it was more of a sponsor slot. So maybe they genuinely don't don't have as much of an understanding of the of the sector. But up until that point, I kind of thought that ev that maybe the panellists all listen to Housed because I thought some of the topics that they spoke about really kind of resonated with things that we've spoken about. And then when he said that, I was like, oh no, you don't listen to Housed at all, do you? Otherwise you'd you'd know the answer to this. But I guess some of the more valuable kind of conversations really I found really interesting was about kind of the labour force, the housing targets, um, about modern methods of construction and kind of what is going to be needed to kind of meet housing targets and how valuable the likes of BTR is to those housing targets. Another thing that I guess ties in really with the theme of today's podcast is with the Renters' Rights Act as it is now and people being able to give notice, will BTR have to try harder to make people sticky, to make them stay, if you don't want that churn in your building? We know sometimes operators do want the churn, but they're not going to be able just to put the price up all the time, every time they have churn. So they're really going to have to, I guess, value and work hard at keeping people in their buildings. So I thought that's an interesting trend to look out for as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I completely agree. I think that is something that BTR do have that does have to watch out for. And I and I think to it to your to your previous point on you know, build more PBSA so less people go into BTR. We know that they're going into BTR for good reason. A lot of it is that flexibility that already pre exists, but some of it's the amenities and the services, and that they're treated like grown-ups and that and the location and the pricing. But now with the renters' rights bill coming into force, we I think that that will lead to even more flexibility. I don't know what that's going to do to the rents in BTR, because it may well shorten the tenancy lengths, at which point, you know, if that asset has a particularly large amount of students, it it you know there may be some impacts there that need to be mitigated in some way, shape or form. But but yeah, I I PB we need to build more PBSA in the right locations because we need to make PBSA more affordable. That's the only way to to really look at it in in my opinion. But yeah, that's a a really interesting point.

SPEAKER_05:

I still think I know we've spoken about this before, but I'm still slightly frustrated that it doesn't appear that PBSA seems to be talking about how to deal with the Renters Rights Act in the sense that PTR can offer flexibility and PBSA isn't going to. They can they'd have to adjust the way they work but they seem to be still thinking well I'll just carry on as normal but it kind of feels that flexibility is a is a plus and it is a positive and yes there is a negative that people can move out when they want but I think when we spoke with Brendan, you know we did discuss this and it's kind of the the positive thing about that is most people don't like to move unless they really need to and they're only going to move if they're having a really bad experience. So yes you do need to make sure they've got a great experience so they don't go and move which can only be another great thing for renters but PBSA I just feel is not really taking this mantle and saying well actually the market's changing what am I doing about it? Unless other people are hearing otherwise.

SPEAKER_03:

No I think I think as we discussed before it's it's the opportunity for PBSA to shout really loudly about all the great things that they do for students. That's that's their USP I mean we're in the middle of doing quite a few marketing audits for universities, for co-living for for PBSA and I you know I think actually sometimes they those messages kind of all merge together when actually like PBSA have specialists living in you know working in those buildings they get students they have services for students and I think that's what needs to be sharpened up really because a lot of the time they're not no nobody's winning on the amenities race are they in BTR and PBSA. They're not winning on the location they're probably not winning on price. But the only thing that they've got over BTR is these you know being specialist student operators and you know we'd love to see more of that. I just want to say one thing about about the event is Nick from the BTR News and Abraham from QX Global were kind enough to let me bring my son to the event it was half term I wouldn't have been able to come if I couldn't bring him but actually he's 14 he's starting to think about GCSEs and his future life he's got an entrepreneurial brain on him. He kind of gets property development a little bit and he was really really interested in it. So they let me bring him and he loved it. He had such a great time so thank you to everybody that engaged in conversation with him. He even got an offer for work experience when he's old enough so um he he loved that. He did say who's the most successful person in the room who should I be talking to I won't tell you what my answer was but he did speak to to the person that I thought probably would be a good person to talk to. But what I would say just on diversity I'm not talking necessarily about 14 year olds coming to loads of events but in the nicest possible way and I'm really sorry if I'm about to offend anybody but I'd say it was quite a mature room and I count myself in that age bracket as well you know and and that's a shame because I think there was a real valuable panel discussion there. And I feel like anybody that's working particularly in BTR new to BTR it would have been such a fantastic experience if they had been put forward to go to that event maybe instead of some of the kind of more familiar, more established faces that probably enjoyed you know meeting up and networking with people they know that actually we'd say it time and time again and you know the cast conference is a great example of actually how they're opening up tickets to other age brackets and you know making it much more diverse but we don't see that at a lot of other events and that's not necessarily down to the organiser, that's down to the people that are accepting the tickets.

SPEAKER_02:

So why why don't we do something about that as the as the team behind Housed I think we've we've got great relationships with pretty much every event organizer out there and they're all looking for diversity and they're all looking for new faces. So why don't we look at contacting each of the event organisers and asking them to just keep aside a couple of tickets not you know not that many for some kind of sort of housed scholarship or whatever we want to call it to then allow that to go to general managers or site teams or younger members of your teams rather than it being the same old faces. Because as much as I love all the faces that I see at each of these events and they are our friends and colleagues and peers, we do need to make sure that we have the next generation. I'm not saying that we need you know we we everyone needs to uh bring their sons or daughters or whoever it may be along but I I do think there's an opportunity there for us.

SPEAKER_03:

So I I mean if you'll allow me to announce that I I think that that is well I I was going to say yeah you you go for it Dan but also I'm a little bit why should we? Why why can you know MDs, COOs, marketing directors, ops directors, why can they not see that they need to educate and inform their next generation, their succession planning?

SPEAKER_02:

These events are expensive. Like you know you're talking five hundred quid minimum for each of the events that we go to you know some of them up to one and a half grand look at UK Reef for example so why why and that's like way down the line when you're buying last minute for example but I I think that's where you do start looking at the ROI. You start thinking like well shall I send a GM along who's not who's going to be a you know bright eyed and bushy tail but like a a rabbit in headlights or do I send my COO who's at every single event and is well used to these things and can probably network better than you know better than anyone else. That's where the ROI does come into play. So if we can take that out of the equation by potentially speaking to each of these event organizers and saying could we please have some tickets for a housed scholarship fund or whatever it might be and then people can just apply for them. I I don't know we we are thinking out loud here but I do think there's an opportunity to to bring through future leaders to these events because it's going to be them that we should be listening to. In particular I think this is relevant for to site teams. So yeah this is work in progress here like I said we're thinking out loud but I think there's a real opportunity here. Sorry to have hijacked that segment.

SPEAKER_05:

You're trying to get a team of roving housed reporters Dan.

SPEAKER_03:

Well exactly well now you mention it no I think I think it's one to keep an eye on I definitely think it's a it's a great idea and if if organizations aren't doing it then you're right we should pick up the mantle because we believe really strongly in it. I think you know a company has to look at their strategic goals and why they would want to go to those events. If it's about business development then the appropriate person should be there absolutely but if they don't have any strategic ambition to grow the business or to network and it's just for information then they should send somebody that would benefit from that information from that panel discussion instead of them and you know not all events cost money either. But also if you're listening and you haven't shared the podcast with your your you know more junior staff, please do because they might not be able to attend an event but this is free, takes up very little time and hopefully we're kind of covering enough topics um that you know would add value to somebody's career as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah completely agree. So I think that's a wrap from our live podcast from from Lisbon and Oxford. Thank you very much to my student halls for being our headline sponsor for the season. Dan and the team your support is hugely appreciated as you well know it's great that you've been with us from the start for those 21,000 listens where your brand has been front and centre. And of course thank you to Utopia and Washstation for coming on board again for season five very grateful for your support as well. So we are back next week with Amanda from Howard Kennedy and she's going to give us the latest updates from the Renters Rights Act. So anyone in PBSA, BTR, HMO, co-living do have a listen into that it's going to be pretty pivotal for you over the course of the next 12 months. Now we hope you've enjoyed listening to this episode as much as we have enjoyed recording it. As ever, if you've got any hot topics or ideas of what you want us to cover across the whole of season five from PBSA, BTR, co living, later living, HMOs, and university accommodation, do get in touch at hello at housedpodcast dot com. Thanks very much for listening and we'll see you next week