If you can't build it, dont! Unite takes stock. Is this BTRs 'time to shine'? Do studio-heavy schemes breed transience? And Ireland again falls into a rent cap trap.

We recorded this week's episode of Housed at Distorted podcast studio.

Listen to hear our views and thoughts on some of the latest news from the world of shared living and more importantly to find out whether Dan Smith actually read this week's show notes...??

Here's what we are discussing:
- How do we design rental homes that people can actually afford to love? We dig into Unite’s decision to defer two major schemes, and why we think this is a positive move in the right direction.
- Is this Build to Rents 'time to shine'? Why Build to Rent still has an upside if operators pivot from flashy amenities to daily utility. 
- We question studio-heavy schemes and we think they breed transience. Mix it up: larger studios, shared apartments, layouts that support longer stays and real community.
- We break down Ireland’s rental reforms - rent caps may feel appealing, but they risk choking supply at a time when housing shortages are acute. Why The UK’s Renters’ Rights Act could learn from this cautionary tale.

You can also watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/mcSWsTvBQ2E

Stay up to date on Housed podcast via its LinkedIn page.

Dan Smith is Founder of RESI Consultancy and Co-Founder of Verbaflo.AI Good Management.

Sarah Canning and Deenie Lee are Directors and Co-Founders of The Property Marketing Strategists - Elevating Marketing in Property.

Thank you to our season four sponsors:
Mystudenthalls.com -  Reach thousands of students searching every month with 0% commission student accommodation listings.

Utopi - The smart building platform helping real estate owners protect the value of their assets.

Washstation - Leading provider of laundry solutions for Communal and Campus living throughout the UK and Ireland.

Howden  - With a lifetime of expertise, Howden provides tailored insurance, property risk management, and wellbeing solutions for accommodation providers across the UK.

Who this episode is for:

• PBSA and student accommodation professionals
• BTR, co-living and rental operators
• Property developers and investors
• University and higher education leaders
• Anyone working in or around housing policy and shared living

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests alone and do not necessarily reflect the views of their employers, organisations, clients, or partners. This podcast is for general discussion and informational purposes only. Nothing said should be taken as professional, legal, financial, or investment advice. While we aim to be accurate, we make no guarantees and accept no liability for decisions made based on the content of this podcast.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome, Sponsors, And UKREiiF Plans
• 3:30 Why A Shared Living Summit Matters
• 6:45 Unite’s Booking Dip And Project Deferrals
• 12:10 The Value Gap And Premium Studio Creep
• 18:20 Planning Costs, Market Shifts, And Share Price
• 23:05 Lessons For Policy And Viability
• 26:35 BTR’s Moment: Amenities Vs Value
• 33:00 Curating Community Without Over-Amenitizing
• 38:20 Older Residents, Mixed Cohorts, And Design
• 42:40 Suburban BTR And Commuter Hubs

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

Hello everyone, and we are back for a brand new episode of How's the Shared Living Podcast, episode three in season six. And it's actually our 88th episode, which means we're getting older and older every week, which is yeah, quite a milestone. Um we're going to be with you for the next few months to bring you the latest news, views and insights from the rented shared living sectors. So if you work in and around PBSA, BTR, co-living, university accommodation, HMO, and rented living sectors, you are absolutely in the right place. I'm Dean Eli from the Property Marketing Strategists.

SPEAKER_02: 0:33

I'm Dan Smith from Resie Consultancy and Verberflow AI.

SPEAKER_03: 0:36

And I'm Sarah Canning from the Property Marketing Strategists. But first we'll have a quick word from our headline sponsor.

SPEAKER_01: 0:44

Housed is sponsored by Spotlight Boost on mysudenthalls.com. Use Spotlight Boost to stand out in search results and drive more leads to your properties.

SPEAKER_03: 0:55

We're really delighted that Dan and the team from MyStudent Halls have decided to be our headline sponsors once again. They are such a key part of the student accommodation marketing cycle and are great partners for us at Housed. Also, a huge thank you to Wash Station Utopia and Howden, and we will hear more from them later. Today, as you can see, we are in a studio. So you can listen, and I gave you a teaser there. You can also see us if you watch this episode back on our YouTube channel. But why are we all together in Leeds? Dan, Sarah, do you want to enlighten us what we've been up to?

SPEAKER_02: 1:28

We have been planning the Shared Living Summit with UK Reef. So housed have taken a space in UK Reef because we saw last year that there was a real gap in terms of the sessions that were put on and some of the panels and the speakers within residential real estate primarily. So we want to make sure that the rental living sector is better represented at UK Reef. So we thought we'd put our money where our mouths are. So yeah, it's it's been really interesting. We've been very grateful to stay at Scape last night. So thanks very much for the team at Scape. But yeah, we've been meeting with the team from UK Reef. We've had a look at the space, we've planned it all out, and we we got to work planning the sessions. So it's been great fun.

SPEAKER_04: 2:08

Definitely. I think seeing the space and working on the agenda has made it very real in a very positive way. Um got a lot of work to do in the next few months, but we're excited to have some amazing partners and collaborators on board, which has made it possible, um, including Collegiate UK, Aboda Students, Utopia, the eWord, Verbaflow, TLJ, This Is Fresh, Loft Scape, Mirror Visuals, and far more soon to announce. So thank you all very much. And you know, we'll be working really closely with our partners over the next few months. And I'm sure you'll hear more about our three-day agenda as well. So I think we'll be coming to Leeds a few more times before UK Reef in May. I might do some more podcasts in this lovely studio.

SPEAKER_03: 2:51

Yeah, that would be great. And yeah, we did do some agenda planning yesterday, and it was really quite exciting. And I'm not going to share any now, so you're going to have to wait. But yeah, I think we've got some really great topics there and a really strong agenda. And yeah, we're we're really looking forward to being up here again in May. We still do have some have some packages available, so do get in touch if you want to get your brand in front of an engaged audience and from across the shared living sectors. We are still hearing from people that are saying they're not sure it's for them from kind of PBSA or BTR, but the very reason we're doing it is because uh UK Reef recognised that there wasn't a central spot for the shared living sectors to come together. So this is precisely why we're doing it. So if you do want to come and get in front of that audience, then it's a perfect place to be.

SPEAKER_02: 3:32

And and News Flash, it's it's also next to the bar. So it's in a great location. You can come and enjoy a drink and also watch a session at the time. So there's a lovely cafe and bar on site. Honestly, it's the best location on site without a doubt.

SPEAKER_04: 3:49

There's air con, so if it's super hot again, we're covered. Um, and as well as the bar, we did sample the brilliant food in our venue yesterday, and we can highly recommend it. So apparently the best Wi-Fi across the venue as well. Even better. So we've got it all covered.

SPEAKER_02: 4:03

We've lapped out, so it's it's department. That's the that's the place we are. So if you're at UK Reef and you've you know you're looking for somewhere to go, department is the place to be.

SPEAKER_03: 4:12

Cool, that's great. So I'm sure you will hear us talk about this more often over the next few weeks and months. But yeah, do get in touch if you do want to get involved. We'd love to have you. But on with the show. So there was some news out from Unite this week where they are reporting weaker bookings for the next academic year, where around 64% of rooms booked from early January, which is down from prior years, which does suggest softening demand and those affordability pressures are having an impact. Plus, they've also pulled out and deferred of two significant developments in both London and Bristol. So, what's your guys' thoughts on this news?

SPEAKER_04: 4:47

Actually, I think I took it as a positive that Unite have pulled out or deferred their developments in London and Bristol. That might sound surprising, but we've been talking, you know, for the last 18 months on the podcast about if you can't do it right, if you can't do it properly, don't do it at all. And what Unite has basically said is it's not the right time for them. They can't get the build cost to where they need it to be to charge the rent that they want to charge and build the product that is needed. And I actually think, you know, due respect, you know, to them for the kind of not compromising. Um, it's obviously disappointing, I guess, for those local areas to, you know, to have significant numbers of student beds that are not going to be coming forward. But I totally agree. If it's not the right thing, in the right place, at the right price, don't build it. Um, we don't need more accommodation that's not right for the local market. Um, so yeah, I'm not I I didn't see it as um, I guess, you know, a negative sort of strategic positioning for Unite. I I I think they've made a really positive move.

SPEAKER_02: 5:51

I think they needed to do something to arrest the the slide in share price. I think that was the the the main thing. We use them as a bit of a bellwether for the market because they're the ones producing the reports we see on a quarterly basis where they're up to with regards to occupancy and revenue, and and it looks like being another tough year if their forecast is anything to go by. I think it's it, you know, they're saying they're expecting to get between 93 and 96% occupancy with a two to three percent rental uplift, and you know, that's down from the sort of 97 or so percent that they're that they're on. Um I think that is a real sign of the times for the rest of the industry that there isn't going to be this great saviour of international students or you know, uh any new domestic students that can magically afford PBSA rooms all of a sudden. And I think that's where Unite have taken that call. They've been they've been quite bold. You know, they've made 60 redundances, so you know, we should just say there are there are um you know some people out there currently looking for jobs. Um a few of them have have reached out, and I know that that is obviously a difficult place to be in, but I do appreciate that Unite did have to do something um to just arrest that share price slide. Now, that being said, they've made 60 redundances and they're doing a 100 million pound share buyback. So, you know, kind of give with one hand, take away with the other. But there is an opportunity to streamline some of the larger operators for sure. So, whilst of course we never like to see redundancies in the sector, I think that we're moving into obviously an era of AI and more streamlined tech, but also therefore more streamlined structures. And I think that has been acknowledged by Unite with the way that they've made these redundancies, but also then, you know, stopping the development of those two assets in particular. That's a real sign to everyone in the industry that it's incredibly difficult to build a mid-range product that offers value. And fair play for Unite taking that bold call to say, we could launch this, and you would then just end up in the value gap, whereby you're offering, you know, a mid-range product, but you're having to charge premium prices for it. And I know that Unite would want to steer clear of that because you know that's not their that's not their area.

SPEAKER_03: 8:06

It does show a really fast moving market as well, because they spent, I think, 10 million pounds actually doing the planning.

SPEAKER_02: 8:13

Oh, I know I saw that as so painful.

SPEAKER_03: 8:16

Because they got refused, so through the planning appeal, they and that's they still then made that decision even after going through all that, which just shows how fast moving everything is changing and shifting. And like you both said, I think it's a positive sign. And it's probably a positive thing for the sector that actually instead of focusing on that development, it actually makes it, you know, you might think back about how what do we need to do in our current kind of properties and how to re-refine that, which I think is a good good step forward.

SPEAKER_04: 8:41

But it and I think just to get it into context, whilst demand is is down, we're talking about three percent. So in their trading report, it's 64% beds sold for 26-27 versus 67 in 25-26. So we're not talking about you know a you know, a massively distressed market, you know, there's not massive alarm bells there. Um, and obviously Unite have to count um you know a lot of their nominations within that period as well. So um I think I think it's more them projecting the future. And what we discussed in the podcast last week was how things have changed, and I guess this is a reflection of that. So, you know, you mentioned the£10 million that they'd already spent on planning, but but things have changed since the the inception of that project, since you know, since the underwrite, you know, all of those things. Exactly. And and that's exactly what we're talking about. We said, you know, if you can't, you know, if you can't build the thing that is relevant for for the future, then you shouldn't build it because what they'd planned to do three years ago is very different to what's needed now. So no, you know, it's probably too quick to presume that they listened to the podcast to make that decision. I'm sure it was all else, Sarah. But we did call it to say.

SPEAKER_03: 9:49

No, I think your point there about kind of it it is why, and it you know, it's impossible but to have that kind of crystal ball to go into the future, where we were talking last week about kind of the the growth of apprenticeships and changing degree programmes is that understanding all that, and you know, you've got to call it, no one's ever gonna know the future because if you do, you'd be a very powerful um person. But you know, taking what we can do and trying to think about and it just prove how difficult it is that actually these things get you know you know five to ten years from paper to building, and it's really hard to predict that future, and it is it is difficult.

SPEAKER_02: 10:25

My my my worry is that this just goes to show that the only thing that's viable at the moment is a premium studio, and I think that is you know, 47% of the planning applications at the moment are premium studios. You say viable if they consider it. Well, yeah, yeah, if you consider viable the only things that are really getting built, and that you know, you you see some great buildings you know coming to life, and and fusion's a great example, you know, they're building really good buildings, and we've seen that in Brent Cross. And and I think though, if you keep filling that premium end of the scale, everybody has to adjust because that's not always going to fill. You're not always gonna be able to fill the premium end at those rents that you're trying to command that you've underwritten, and therefore those rents will slide as the occupancy drops, and then everybody again slides down that affordability scale. And that's where I think Unite have probably just made a call early. Well, obviously£10 million in in but to say, yeah, like we will end up in the value gap if we keep it keep building these here, and that is not going to be offering value to their shareholders. I think there's quite a few other operators that are going to get caught short by this affordability scale and and uh students sliding down it. So, you know, yes, we're continuing to fill that premium end of the development funnel because nothing else really works on paper, and for Unite to very clearly show that. I just wonder what the lessons are that we can take from this. I think, you know, is there something that we can do with then going to government? I'm assuming that, you know, the um British Property Federation um and uh yeah, UK real estate as it is, they're now thinking, right, this is a great lesson for us to take to government to say, look, this this isn't viable for various different reasons. And some of it is the 10 million quid that we've chucked into planning before even getting spades in the ground, then it's the cost of getting those spades in the ground, it's the cost of capital. How can we alleviate that, incentivise it? Were there affordability issues with regards to London and the fact that you have to bake in a certain amount of affordability into these rents? I and you know that we'll come on to some, you know, some some more on rent caps fairly soon when we talk about Ireland. But I and yes, I have looked at the show notes to be.

SPEAKER_01: 12:40

See my face.

SPEAKER_02: 12:42

But I think there are lessons to be learned from this. I do think fair play. I think fair play to Unite for being bold enough to take that move, but they did need to do something relatively drastic to just arrest that slide, I think.

SPEAKER_04: 12:54

I I you know, I guess it is a bold move. And will planners, councils, government be interested in these two sites that are no longer to gonna have a site built on them? You know, they were a piece of land, and now it they, you know, someone else needs to go through that whole process again, which is pushing that development back, you know, by years. And as we discussed, I think in our end of year one about you know planning and you know, land. Well, nobody wants to see a big plot of land, you know, disused and not being developed on. So it's it's you know, it's probably a big statement.

SPEAKER_03: 13:29

I mean it is it's I was just thinking when you you were both talking, it's it's a weird world we're in that we're in this housing crisis, that we know we need homes, but yet they're not viable to build, even though the demand is there. And I think that's partly product. I think the sector's got something to answer in that. And I think we said last week that innovation has to happen from the ground up. Like we can't just go, well, I can build this high high-range product, this medium range, but I can't build this. It's kind of like actually, you know, we get as humans we can solve a lot of problems. Can we actually solve this? But it just goes to show the pressures on everyone that actually in a world where we just need more homes, but we can't actually build them. I'm sure we'll come back to some of those topics later on. But first, we'll have a quick break to hear from one of our sponsors. Utopia is the trusted partner for high performance asset management, cutting energy costs, reducing risk, and delivering proven ESG results.

SPEAKER_02: 14:21

With billions of data points and 75,000 rooms monitored, Utopia turns real-time intelligence into measurable value, protecting investments and driving continuous improvement.

SPEAKER_04: 14:31

Choose intelligence that delivers, uh choose utopia.

SPEAKER_03: 14:34

A big thank you to Utopia for continuing to be a sponsor and partner for us. We do really appreciate your support. So, content too, it's another topic, I think, that we actually discussed in our catch-up uh or kind of review or predictions of the year last week around BTR. And the Financial Times had a article about is this Bill Torrent's moment to shine? Um, whereas we were kind of saying the same that actually BillTorrent has all the things make up for actually really building growth and coming to its own this year. Sarah, I'm gonna come to you first because I know you kind of found the article. What what was the article saying?

SPEAKER_04: 15:09

Well, isn't it great, first of all, that there is an article about BuildTorrent in the Financial Times. So that's kind of my first first comment. And and it's a really, really great article. It kind of, I don't know, it covers a lot of of topics. So if anyone hasn't read it, um look it up online um because it's um, you know, it's almost like I guess like a story of Build to Rent and all of the different topics that that cover it um from and it was um printed on the 9th of January. One thing that we did cover about was kind of the uh the amenity arms race in the podcast last week, and they actually talked about this uh as well. And it does seem like we we might look to fewer amenities in return for lower rents. James Dunn, head of UK Living at Estate Agent Cushman and Wakefield were talking, was talking about this in the article. And I think it's really that what they're saying is it's it's time to shine. They've tried lots of things. Um, we've got lots of high-end developments, there's been lots of amenities, and now they're looking at what's working, what's sticking, what are the residents wanting. There's a lot of interviews with residents in build-to-rent buildings as well, which is fantastic. It seems really that that co-working within the building is is the thing that that residents are are most looking for. Although some did mention kind of really niche sort of social events and and ways of of meeting people. And I guess that's the point, really, and that's why we say it's for everybody, is everybody has their own reason to live in a building like that. And it's really, really hard for developers, for landlords, for operators to work out what that is, who the market is, when effectively the market is everybody. So, yeah, that that was really interesting. And then they talk about matching flatmates as well, which I know is something that we talk about so much in PBSA and university accommodation, and it's not popular, and it seems that with the student demographic, nobody wants to do it. But in BuildTorrent, um, the Vita team um have been developed a personality questionnaire focused on cleanliness, sociability, and thoughtfulness to match people together, which I think is you know, it's really great, I guess, to be, you know, calling it out that there's some thoughtfulness going on behind the scenes of the case.

SPEAKER_03: 17:19

I did love the little example about thoughtfulness was like if you went away and your black mate left your plant to look after, what would the plant look like?

unknown: 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 17:28

Um but I guess maybe I should ask you both that what would happen.

SPEAKER_04: 17:31

But I think but I I yeah, you might not want to know the answer to that one. I'm alright.

SPEAKER_02: 17:35

If there's one thing I can look after, it's it's it's houseplants, but still.

SPEAKER_04: 17:39

No, I I'm privileged enough to live with someone that loves houseplants, so it's not my responsibility. Yeah, but I think with I guess with that flatmate matching, that example of that question, I think that's a really good example of how to know, subliminally, like cleverly match people together.

SPEAKER_03: 17:58

I think when we talk to make it onerous. I think that is the point that I liked about it. It's like it's not heavy, it's like, oh, I can answer that question.

SPEAKER_04: 18:04

And when we've talked about it before, people are like you know, I think they take it literally that you're gonna say to to somebody, you know, I don't know, do you want to live with someone, you know, from your country? Do you want to speak, you know, live with someone that speaks English? And we never want to go down that route. But talking about kind of their attitudes to life and their values, that's what we're talking about. Um, so I really liked that example um, you know, as well. Um Dan, what did you take from the article?

SPEAKER_02: 18:32

I think it's really important to curate that community because to a certain extent within BTR um co-living and and within PBSA as well, we do have a bit of a homogenous sector. And we talked about the amenity arms race and and how actually I think residents are more focused on value than than some operators give them credit for. And you know, there might be a bit of a focus on let's build another cinema room or whatever it might be. And actually what they want is that co-working space and they want a bit of social space that they can um that they can use as and when as well and invite guests over. And I think that it's really important that we don't over-amenitize these properties now because obviously that adds to the cost. I think we can make sure that we have enough amenities that the properties are attractive and you have enough, you know, of a USP to take to market. But I think it is going to be you know, the USPs are going to be focused on that community curation. And Vito obviously does a great job of that. We we we know that from having stayed there last year in Leeds with UK Reef, but also just across the board, you know, they they will always be thinking outside the box on how to, you know, go that go that step beyond. There's many other brands out there that are doing the same as well. But I do think that making sure that that community is harmonious, in particular, that you're gonna live with people that you're gonna enjoy living with, that's one key focus. But then giving people the opportunity to Step out into that community with the events and and bringing their social and work life together in in one place where they live. Like that's this is it sounds that sounds really obvious, but we can't keep building buildings that you know and putting amenities into them that are you know purely going to try and be a USP when you come to selling it. Like it has to be about the people there and about that sense of community that you can and that's why the likes of student crowd and home views, for example, have shot up in popularity because there's such a focus on the review culture and social proof because people want to see that other people have enjoyed living in your property. They don't necessarily care that it's got that cinema room. You won't really tend to find that it much in reviews. You might find a little bit about a gym or whatever. Um, but but I do think that we need to make sure that it's also about the services, not just the product that we have, but those services are key. And I think that's where BTR has a big opportunity to, you know, really, and same with co-living as well, to curate that community, to say, look, the focus of what we, you know, what each event is about this, and this is how you get involved, and this is how we can bring you out of your rooms. It's obviously important for PBSA, but equally for BTR and co-living.

SPEAKER_03: 21:17

I think we do, I think one of my kind of worries when we talk about community though, is that when people talk about community, they talk about one type of community, and then they start to develop that community for one type of community. And I think what was interesting about this article is that it's saying that more built-to-rent are increasingly aiming at older residents, and actually um one of them estimated the that um ten one in ten tenants are over 60. And I think what I worry about sometime is that we get far too focused on oh, it's for this young professional community, and I've got to put all on these events and this kind of thing. And actually, really, as we've said before, is that in communities across history, there's always been a diverse mix of people in those communities. A community isn't one type of person, and I think you've got to make sure that actually it's a bit like some, you know, we do website projects or branding projects, and we look at personas, and your customers can be a wide range of different personas that all have different needs, and that's the same with the community, and just it doesn't mean that one size fits all, but it means there is a point of connection, you've just got to find that point of connection. I think sometimes, in a way, we overcomplicate it by saying going too into that detail is actually it's just you want to bring the community. Yeah, yeah. People want to live here and be happy and they want to connect, and they don't have to be the best of friends, they might be the best friends, they might not be the best friends, but they want to be part of a connected community in some way.

SPEAKER_04: 22:38

One observation in this article is that you know, we've we've seen dining spaces, you know, communal kitchen dining spaces being quite popular, and they're suggesting that actually, you know, ones that seat six people are much more popular than people that seat 20. Um, you know, and that's kind of really obvious, really. You know, if you've got you're having a dinner party, you want us, you know, few people together. It's the same, I guess, as we've seen that kind of evolution in workspace and study space as well. You know, we've we've called it out before, we can't keep forcing people to be part of big communities. You know, how what are you gonna do with a 20-seater dining room? You know, that's just a waste of of space. And I guess, and also, you know, no disrespect to podcast studios, but in a in a community where you might have 400 residents, how many of them are really gonna use, you know, podcast studio? Because, you know, I'd say I've got quite a big, um, big friendship group. And in that friendship group, I'm the only one that hosts a podcast.

SPEAKER_03: 23:35

So but also I think it's a bit like Jim, like if you host a professional podcast or you're into podcasting, you're probably gonna come to an amazing studio like this, not go to one that's hasn't got all the resources that we've got here to exactly personalise it.

SPEAKER_04: 23:49

Yeah, what's the difference between a podcast room and a podcast studio? Quite a lot, as we've discovered. So, yeah, so I think I think it's thinking of those spaces and actually how are the masses going to use them? You know, how are you, you know, if the majority of the people in the building have access to them and are going to use them, brilliant, it's the right thing to do. But if you're you know using space, like you said, that valuable space for very, very niche amount of people, you know, in a building of 400, you know, if there's 20 people that are going to use a podcast room, don't build it. It's not the right thing to do.

SPEAKER_02: 24:18

So so do we think BTR is going to have its moment? I think that um, you know, we've the pipeline doesn't look like it's massively increasing. Like that's my slight concern. It's it is still very difficult to build BTR, especially high-rise BTR with the gateways and Building Safety Act, etc. I I do think there is a big opportunity for BTR to showcase that value and that community. And I it's really good to see it maturing. And the signs of maturity for from what I can see are the fact that in years two and three post-mobilisation of a BTR property, you have less students living there. So first year, bit of a free-for-all. Those caps typically will go out the window for some operators, not all. There's some that will maintain, you know, a 10-20% cap on students. But in that year two, year three, I do like the fact that we are starting to see BTR kind of dwindle in terms of that student representation within each cohort because it does need to stand on its own two feet. Can't be PBSA by proxy or by the back door or whatever you want to call it. You have to make sure that it can stand on its own two feet. Leeds is a prime example, obviously. We've had a wanderer around um over the course of the last couple of days, and we know that it is full of BTR, it is full of BTR that is full of students, and and I think that's where eventually we will start to see that come down, even in somewhere like Leeds, where it is that you know there is a big pipeline here, there's a lot of BTR, there's a lot of PBSA. So across the country, I would like to obviously see more BTR development because I do think it is a real solution to a lot of the housing crisis. But in the same way that we've talked about Unite, how do you make sure that it doesn't just fall into the value gap and all you build is premium with all the amenities and the podcast studios and the you know all the bells and whistles when actually, you know, probably BTR does need to focus on that value and that community, and and I think that's where the opportunity really lies for BTR across the board because the investors are willing it on. Big capital, institutional capital, you don't tend to find as many uh short-term private equity flippers of that kind of portfolio or property, and I think that's really encouraging. I'd love to see more of more institutional capital in in um in PBSA as well. But yeah, I I do think this could be the time to shine for BTR.

SPEAKER_03: 26:34

BTR should have a maturing resident portfolio because if it's doing its job properly, those residents will stay there as they get older and they might move apartments, they might change apartments, they might, you know, get into a relationship, they might have a child. So by default, if they're doing their job properly, they will age and they will get older and they will stick there and stay there. And and I think you know, it it still comes down to the fact we're in a housing crisis, and the people that are struggling most in a housing crisis are people who are trying to move into their first home, whether that's renting or buying or whatever that is. Um, so it has to be the value end of the market. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 27:12

I think I'd like to see more um suburban BTR, you know, it can't just not everybody wants to live in a city as well. And you know, in a lot of parts of the UK, there are good transport links, so people don't have to live in a city. You know, people are working from home as well, much more. So, you know, I think, and and you know, if it's suburban, it's got to be more smaller scale, you're not going to have those big, big high-rise blocks. Um, you won't need as many communal facilities because you won't have as many, you know, residents. And, you know, as we said last week, what we're talking about is just professionally managed apartment blocks. That is BTR, you know, it it and it's it doesn't have to be what's come before. So if the lack of buildings coming through planning and being built is because they're not viable and they can't be built, brilliant, don't build them. Um, you know, it it would you know be fantastic if that kind of accelerates the maturity of of the market by you know really considering, like this article suggests, what people really want and and need, and you know that that has evolved.

SPEAKER_02: 28:15

I think you're right, talking about the almost the commuter hubs. And when you think about the BTR in London, for example, obviously zone one, you're not gonna see a huge amount of BTR. You're gonna see it in Wembley or you're gonna see it in Stratford, where people can commute in. Think about Leeds as well. Yes, there's a load of central BTR here because the land prices are relatively cheap. Um, but why would you not be building BTR in and around Wakefield, around the train station, which is 15 minutes away? Yeah, we were talking to um Andy and the team at UK Reef yesterday, talking about the accommodation cost of UK Reef in central Leeds, albeit there should be a fair amount of occupancy in certain PBSA, but we know that people will stay in Wakefield and travel in. Well, that's where I think we need to be focusing our attention on on you know some of these suburbs, like you said. Doesn't have to be the high rises, obviously that net that then avoids um uh the Building Safety Act, etc. But we have to make sure that we are, or at least, you know, some of the key gateways for for high rise within that. But we have to make sure that we are not just thinking, right, build a massive high rise in a city centre, and then you amenatize the hell out of it, then you end up with your premium product, but that's not necessarily what the industry wants, what the residents all want. And and we do have to prepare to bring it back to what you said earlier, we do have to prepare for the fact that we want to blend some of these living sectors together, you know, and we want to make sure that you could have a student with a young professional, with a young family, with you know, a someone who's retired. Like it it I think there's a big opportunity there to create really nice, harmonious communities. Um, everybody is looking for their tribe, they all want to, you know, live with people who are typically quite similar to them. But then again, you know, then we just become siloed, and I think there's a big opportunity to to really to really make the most of that community.

SPEAKER_03: 30:10

Also, we're in a world of hybrid working that actually you don't need to be in the city centre five days a week. So actually you'd save a lot of money renting out of the city centre, and when you've only got to be in the office two or three days a week, it it makes totally.

SPEAKER_04: 30:21

And they're the areas that people are struggling most to rent, you know, as well. There's you know, though the people that, you know, maybe want to move out of their family home, but there are no, you know, suitable places to rent for you know for that next stage of of renting. And you know, it makes absolutely no sense if I if I think about where I live in in Bedford, where people generally aren't gonna go and live in London. You know, that's not the next natural step. Um Milton Keynes is, and there's actually a lot of BTR, you know, coming up there. So that's an example of really great kind of suburban slash small city um kind of living. It doesn't have to be in the the main cities, the main transport hubs.

SPEAKER_03: 30:58

I mean, I can almost see it turning on its head that actually those kind of big graduates or just out of school or apprenticeships just gone, just staying in those kind of out of town, and actually it's only when you get a bit more money or you meet someone or you're retired or your kids have left home and you think actually I want to go and get the city life now, the city fixed now, that it becomes something that happens later in life when you've got the money to do it because you don't have it when you start work. I mean, I moved to London straight out of graduation, and you know, uh most of my earnings were spent on rent even back then. Yeah, um, you know, and my fun was I'd go and get like a three pound bottle of wine down the convenience box. That's all I can afford to do in London. Yeah, of course. Um, but you know, it's a lot lot harder, and it was hard then, and it's a lot harder now. So yeah, we we might see that change. We'll have a quick break uh to hear from one of our sponsors.

SPEAKER_00: 31:47

Washstation proudly sponsor this episode of Housed. We provide best in class laundry solutions that complement your buildings. Washstation. Smart, green, clean.

SPEAKER_03: 31:58

Washstation is a leader in managed laundry service. They use smart technology to deliver reliable, efficient laundry solutions that put customers first. And we really do appreciate Wash Station sponsoring our podcast. Thank you. Next, a similar kind of article we saw about a co-living scheme in Exeter, which is part co-living and part student. I guess it's interesting. A couple of levels is is there a mix? Can students and co-living people mix together or are they totally separate? But my question is back to what we've already discussed, really, is why not just create some mixed use development for students and young professionals and they live wherever they want. Why do we have to have the separation? I'm not sure we know the answer to whether they're separated or not.

SPEAKER_02: 32:37

But well, if it's mixed, if it's you know, co-living a student, is student. Like it typically that's what I'm saying. It's got a planning, yeah. It's got a planning, yeah. Yeah, so so I think but again, the planners have, in my experience, having been through the process, but also then uh writing these reports for developers, there is just this complete lack of understanding from the majority of planning departments about who is going to live in Co-Living or BTR compared to PBSA. So I I think again we need root and branch review to ensure that we are building the right product for the right people. And then we, yeah, um, you know, maybe we end up with this homogenous sector where it's totally blended. But I just think for me, if you're building 800 units and you know, 414 of those are co-living studios and the rest is sort of for student or so, there's gonna be a lot of students that live in those co-living, you know, spaces anyway. Like I I you know, you're not gonna persuade them from that.

SPEAKER_04: 33:36

Well that's my kind of question, really. It doesn't say out of the 399 student units, are they shared flats? You know, and actually co-living is the studio element, or are they gonna be studios within the student one? Because then that creates kind of this, you know, bad pricing ladder. You know, are they the same studios? Are they the same size? Are they the same price? Because that just seems like a really pointless exercise, really.

SPEAKER_02: 33:58

Is it uh have they thought about the council tax implications and how they keep track of that? And it's just again, just feels like a bit of a mess. I think council tax needs looking at across the board as well within PBSA because there are too many really aggressive councils there who are just chasing the moment someone checks out, etc. So all of all of that needs looking at. But you know, who's checking that off the list? Who knows who is telling the councils and the government that that's what needs to be done? Again, it comes back to let's hope that you know UK real estate is actually going to have some impact there, and the you know, the ARL, the Association for Rental Living, or whoever else. But but yeah, I I s I struggle with stuff like this when you've got co-living next to student because that will just become student effectively by the back door.

SPEAKER_04: 34:44

Yeah, I mean I think you know it's great that you know I guess we talk about some of these, you know, we were just talking about some of these more suburban areas. Okay, Exeter is a big city, but you know, it's great to see co-living being built in a city like Exeter. I think I'm completely, you know, supportive of of that. Um I think it's just an interesting way of approaching the development of a site and 800 units by creating segregation. Doesn't really make it clear why why that was needed. You know, I think 800 student units would have been too many in Exeter. Definitely. Um so they've kind of halved it. But if they'd done 800 co-living units that are studios, that wouldn't have been right either. Well, that's too much of a risk for an investor, I think, to you know, but doesn't it come back to what what we say a lot of the time is that if co-living wasn't studios, if co-living was shared flats, then the whole thing could be co-living, and you would just have some that are, you know, maybe three, four, five, six bedroom flats, and some that are studios, and then it would all be co-living, and none of it would be PBSA, which would give it a lot of longevity, it would future-proof it, and students could live there anyway.

SPEAKER_02: 35:46

But then maybe the numbers wouldn't stack up. That's the only thing. Like if you then remove that from being the the typical studio product, that makes it less than a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_03: 35:54

But you could still have more people who want to live there, I think. No, I agree, yeah. That that it probably is all of the above, but I still argue it's not it's in my mind, it's still not co-living. And I think I've said this in previous podcasts, it feels like a co-living studio is a modern day bedsit, yeah, effectively. Yeah, and we all know what we think of a bedsit. If I said you're a bedsit in the 90s, you'd have shock horror of I don't want to go and live there. So it it really worries me that we're gonna go down the same route if we keep building these studios because I don't I don't think anyone wants to live in, not long term. Um, like you might have a co-living unit that's got 10% studios for those that just want to, you know, are coming in for work or whatever they're doing, but I think there is it's hard to live in that environment in long term.

SPEAKER_02: 36:39

It's it's a it's a stop gap, and I think that's the that's the identity crisis that we've that we've talked about that co-living has. So, you know, who lives there long term, how do you make sure that the community is there and it's not transient? Because you will get people who just rock up because they commute or that they just need to stay over in that city with work or whatever it might be. You know, do you get people who live in co-living for the long term? Well, define long term, you know, a couple of years that's probably feels like that would I mean I'd be maxed out within two years, I think, if I was living in a small room. But equally who who knows? I I would I think I think it's worth us having more of a conversation with the co-living sector. It was really interesting speaking to Jamal Brown from uh ARK Co-Living uh at Property Week at the Student Accommodation Conference and Awards. But uh he has done an incredible job of you know curating that community. We we know ARC, we've we've we've either stayed there or had a good look round. And I do think that that is almost more of a sort of hospitality concept as well. So it's co-living needs to find that balance between how much is short stay hospitality one night, two night, how much is long-term community, how many people are going to want to stay long term. So looking at that average length of stay, I'd be really interested to get some more data from the co-living industry on what that looks like and how you could make it longer, make the assets stickier, and not make it transient so that you have, you know, thinking about cradle to grave here, PBSA, then you finish, you graduate, you go into co-living, then you, you know, you outgrow co-living, or you, you know, you want to have a family, but then you go into BTR, then you, you know, how could you take that, take someone right the way through the rental journey? And is that what everybody wants? No, it's not, but I think providing them the option of that, I think, is is absolutely key.

SPEAKER_04: 38:28

I think there's studios and there's studios as well. So the studios we all stayed in in Scape last night, they're big, they're really, really, you know, you know, well amiotised with, you know, really good wardrobes, really good desk space, kitchen space, like sitting space. I think a couple could happily live there for actually a really long time. Yeah, you know, but there are much smaller studios where a couple couldn't live, and and we don't know if this development is single occupancy or or not, because the danger is that you say 400 single occupancy studios, that will increase your transientness. Yeah. Because, you know, people meet people, you know, they have relationships, that's the nature of things. But if you can't live with a couple, you know, another person for a long period of time, then you're going to move out of that, you know, pretty, pretty quickly. And then what if you have a child? You know, so those kind of I think those kind of single occupancy studio co-living schemes are uh are by nature going to be very transient and very short term. I think if you have a ladder of studios that you can upgrade to, if if you if you insist that a co-living building has to be studios, then I think you could be really, really innovative and kind of create that longevity that you know you could quite happily live in a really fantastic, amazing studio, you know, with a baby or a young child, you know, if if it's you know designed right. You know, I'm sure we've all watched loads of movies of people living in New York and they're all like really cool, loft living studios, you know, and I think that's kind of what we're we're missing, really. And you know, may you know, maybe this development will buck the trend and we'll see some really amazing studios that encourage people to. Stay long term. Yeah, I hope so. Let's hope so.

SPEAKER_03: 40:02

Let's see what the year entails. And I will have a quick break for our sponsor, Howden.

SPEAKER_04: 40:08

Howden is the fifth largest employee-owned business in the UK and one of the largest insurance groups globally. With over 60 years' experience, Howden's specialist education division delivers tailored insurance, risk management, and well-being solutions for the education sector.

SPEAKER_02: 40:24

We're a trusted partner of nearly a thousand schools, colleges, universities, and student accommodation providers across the UK.

SPEAKER_03: 40:31

Howden helps owners and operators protect what matters most. And so they are the perfect sponsors for House. Thank you for coming on board for season six. Thank you, Howden's, for joining us this season. It is great to have you on board. Our final content piece for today, which I think you've already alluded to, Dan, is about the Irish rental reforms. It's a big year for policy and legislation this year. We've obviously got the Renters' Rights Act coming in, and in Ireland we've got the rental reforms, which will see a stronger security of tenure for all new tenances after the first of March, a national rent control system capped at 2% in times of high inflation, an end to no fault evictions, roll-in six-year tenancies, market rent resets permitted at the end of each six-year cycle, but only where a no fault has occurred. Tenant in situ sales will remain possible, ensuring landers can still sell with a tenant in place. And there is going to be rent control for new developments which commenced after July 2025. What have you heard?

SPEAKER_02: 41:32

I mean, anytime you mention rent controls, and I have a few people on LinkedIn posts recently saying, well, you guys just need rent controls, don't you? No, no, we don't. Nobody needs rent controls. It does not help with affordability. And that has been shown. So how do we make sure that the government in the UK doesn't take a leaf out of Ireland's book and start to put those rent controls in place? Because what it does is stop any kind of development. And I think that is a massive, massive issue. Now, if you're going to say, listen, it's got to track inflation to a certain extent, but you I mean, capping it at 2%, which is what it has been previously, but capping it at 2% in times of high inflation, investors just aren't going to think, well, yeah, this is this is something that's going to generate alpha here. This is just a real it's just such a backward step. I don't see that it's you know it's too interventionist. It is going to stop development. And if you want more affordable homes, don't put any barriers in the way of developers. That is the major issue that this is going to do. Now, to a certain extent, they're they're mirroring a little bit of what's going on with the renters' rights act, they're probably borrowing a bit from each other. Ireland seems to be going that one step beyond with these rent controls for new developments, etc. And I just think that's going to be pretty catastrophic for the rental sector in Ireland in particular. And it will just, you know, in a in a country which has been famed for its development, you know, think about the Celtic Tiger and how the economy was doing during a big boom of building in particular. That building just isn't really going to happen now. That that that my my opinion. I'm heading to Ireland with Verberflow in early early February. Um, and you know, I'm I'll be meeting a lot of operators of BTR and and co-living, and I'll be really quizzing them on this as to what impact they they think. So I'll I'll report back mid-Feb uh as to what the impact is gonna be.

SPEAKER_04: 43:18

I think I mean it's basically the rent is right plus rent controls. Yeah, yeah. And I think with the rent controls, I think I don't know, I think it's a strange I can understand why they're doing it in a way, but I think it's a strange time to do it because you are putting the brakes on a country that desperately needs homes. So I think that's I I can kind of understand it more if you were, I don't know, looking to to start, you know, a big regeneration or an emerging market potentially, because you're setting your stall out of kind of what's expected. I think you know, the the Republic of Ireland has gone through a really great, you know, growth phase with development. And and you know, like you said, that's that's got all the attention for the right reasons because of the amazing places to live there are now in in Ireland for people. So to put the brakes on now does feel like a backward step because developers are going to think, well, all these people that came before me, they reaped the benefits, didn't they? They got all the profits, they they did really well out of it. Why would I build now when I'm not going to you know to experience that? So it's I just don't think it's the right time or the right place to put that, you know, to put that in place now, really.

SPEAKER_02: 44:27

It I mean it definitely isn't, but you know, the investors and some operators did get carried away the rents across all living sectors, in in Dublin in particular, but also the other major cities. And and so there is a certain element of the government saying, Well, you couldn't you couldn't rein yourselves in here, so we're gonna have to do it for you. And I think unfortunately that again, that real focus on right, well, we can drive the revenue here, we can push the rents because the you know that there's a market demand there. I just think that is unfortunately, you know, the the industries have now come unstuck. And it's just a real lesson to the fact that we need to get these these you know asset classes, help them become more mature so that they can in you know get that long-term capital involved, which means that you don't have to worry too much about driving your rents double digits every year. So I think that's where the government have stepped in, unfortunately. But um we'll we'll see.

SPEAKER_03: 45:21

Yeah, no, it it's gonna be a year of policy changes, and everyone's got to get their ducks in a row relatively quickly for that, and as as ever, we'll be keeping you updated with what we hear and what the impacts are. So, just to finish, we've got some exciting news to share from one of our friends of the PON the podcast. The eWord has just launched their top voices of property marketing 2026, which I think you both might have been on last year, maybe. Absolutely. Just give you both a nod there. Thank you. Top Voices is about celebrating the leading voices across the property sector. Um so those people who are genuinely redefining property marketing right now, the innovators, the thought leaders, the marketers driving real change across the sector. And they're looking for your help. So to uncover the brightest stars in property marketing. So whether it's PBSA, build to rent, later living, or any other corner of the sector, the search is on for the visionaries transforming how we think about and talk about property marketing. So who is leading the conversation in your view? It could be someone creating innovative content, sharing expert commentary, forecasting the next big trends, or introducing valuable data that's changing the game. Whoever springs to mind when you think of that, the eWord wants to hear from you. Nominations are now open, so please head to the eWord.co.uk to submit your nominations. Winners will be announced in March, so get them in and help spotlight the people shaping the future of property marketing. So that's us for today, and thank you to my student halls for being our headline sponsor for the season once again. Your support as ever is hugely appreciated. And of course, thank you to Utopia and Wash Station for coming on board again for season six. We're grateful for your support. And finally, our new sponsor, Howden. Thank you so much for joining us. Next week, we actually have a very special China episode with Tom and Fever City talking about how Chinese residents impact the rental sectors. You'll be getting a huge amount of insight from the sector specialists, so please make sure you join us next week.